Heer Panzer document madness!

[Eric K.]

Hello all

I've had these docs for years, I don't think I've ever posted them before. No I know your looking at the title thinking whats going on.......Before I get into this let me tell you about this grouping, its HUGE I have everything you can imagine from this guy . I got it from his wife ( who is very nice by the way) so it's never been messed with and never in a collection.

I'll start with his wound badge.............

[Eric K.]

Ost medaille...so far so good

[Eric K.]

His first bronze panzer badge... 7. pzr. Gren. RGT 101

[Eric K.]

His second (?????) or is this the official version , different unit ( or renamed?) 3. PZ. Gren. RGT 108

[Eric K.]

His badge, too bad for the broken catch

[Eric K.]

POW in Russia

[Eric K.]

Herr Speh in the RAD

[Eric K.]

Now when you look at this photo. this IS Erwin Speh the man with (2??)Bronze Panzer assault badges. His Wife would know if this was his brother, cousin, friend etc......

Is it even possible to wear an IAB AND a PAB at the same time???what's going on here???

Edited May 10, 2008 by Eric K.

[Guest Rick Research]

That's a duplicate posted scan of his preliminary bronze Panzer Assault Badge document instead of the East Medal in #2.

I've seen a LOT of documents that simply said "Sturmabzeichen" leaving me wondering WHICH ONE? But sure enough both of his clearly specifiy PANZER.

I believe that any such "different" assault badges earned could be worn. As a Panzer Grenadier he may have had one of the infantry versions BEFORE getting the bronze "Panzer" one-- and maybe since "both" were earned in the same unit, only felt as if he should wear "one?" That "infantry" document must be lost. He's not wearing the East Medal ribbon in that photo, so some time must have passed before his 1944 Bronze PAB was awarded.

I once hasd a group where the poor guy had TWO Black Wound Badge award documents for the same wound-- 1 issued by his unit when he came back without one, and a much delayed one from the hospital. Both were for the same "one" wound--same date. He then had another for his second "black" wound and poor slob got a document for his 3rd "silver" with the hospital's notation that all they had was the paperwork-- no badges were available! FOUR documents-- ONE badge!

[Eric K.]

Sorry about the double post I'll fix it today.

I would love to see a picture of someone wearing both badges, or maybe Luft and Heer combinations. Even tho I've never seen it I'm sure they're out the.

Four documents and one badge sounds like a bad deal, maybe He could combine them and get a Gold.

I've personally got 2 ARCOMS for the same action. I think It's kind of cheating and I brought it up to my chain of command but they just shrugged it off and told me the paper work is done and that I "lucked out"..... I didn't get any medals or ribbons for either one....happens all the time.

Eric

[Gordon Williamson]

More common than you'd think to find a Panzer man wearing an Infantry badge. Many fought as infantry first were "blooded" in battle as Infantry and wore that badge with pride in preference to anything else earned later. I know of a Knight's Cross winning panzer ace with the "25" Panzer Assault Badge but all he ever wore was the Infantry Assault Badge he first earned.

I've seen a LOT of documents that simply said "Sturmabzeichen" leaving me wondering WHICH ONE?

Rick, if all it says is "Sturmabzeichen", its definitely for the General Assault Badge. Its often entered that way in the Soldbuch/Wehrpass too. The "Allgemeines" part wasn't always used.

[Chris Boonzaier]

Not forgetting, Infantry regiments in a panzer division were awarded the Bronze Panzer badge.

Best

Chris

[Eric K.]

Not forgetting, Infantry regiments in a panzer division were awarded the Bronze Panzer badge.

Best

Chris

So did the Infantry automatically get the PAB in Bronze? If so there would be a lot of pissed off Infantrymen.Even tho they're under a Panzer Division surely they would get the IAB?

I thought that the Bronze PAB was for non "Tank" guys, half-tracks etc.....

I'm Infantry in a Cav. unit and I think I would have a stroke if they gave out Combat Action Badges instead of C.I.B's!!!

Eric

[Gordon Williamson]

So did the Infantry automatically get the PAB in Bronze? If so there would be a lot of pissed off Infantrymen.Even tho they're under a Panzer Division surely they would get the IAB?

I thought that the Bronze PAB was for non "Tank" guys, half-tracks etc.....

I'm Infantry in a Cav. unit and I think I would have a stroke if they gave out Combat Action Badges instead of C.I.B's!!!

Eric

The original German documentation refers to the IAB in Bronze for motorised infantry, and the PAB in Bronze for armoured infantry (Panzergrenadiers).

As an example, a soldier in the LAH would get the IAB in Bronze during the campaign in the West in 1940. At that time the regiment was motorised Infantry. Another in the same regiment fighting on the Eastern Front later in the war by which time the regiment was armoured infantry, would get the PAB in Bronze.

In reality I suspect there was some blurring as to who got what when it came to determining "motorised" and the difference between those in trucks and those in half-tracks.