Generalleutnant Dipl.Ing. Wilhelm Philipps (1894-1971)

[webr55]

Not mine, sadly. But if I had seen this bar (front only), I'd have thought it was a fake...

[Guest Rick Research]

[Guest Rick Research]

Mrrraaaooowww rrraaaaaoooo FFFFFFT FFFFFFT !!!!

Don't tease me with Freakishly Wrong stuff like that! Show us the rest of the WEIRDO stuff!

:catjava:

[webr55]

Ok - you wanted it!

[webr55]

I couldn't resist teasing... Wilhelm Philipps' complete awards are in the German Tank Museum in Munster. They have his RK, DKiG and all the others, most docs too.

Now this is his medal bar - minus the missing St. Henry...

[webr55]

This is his earlier ribbon bar...

[webr55]

... and it might be the very one that is on this picture of him:

[webr55]

Now... any idea what the point here is....? :rolleyes:

[webr55]

Ok - there are two things in the collection that I didn't show yet... and they make this bar not correct - but a little less strange...

[Guest Rick Research]

Those two THINGS on the end of the first ribbon bar.

One only makes sense if Carl Eduard gave him one in 1935 and the last... ????

[webr55]

Those two THINGS on the end of the first ribbon bar.

One only makes sense if Carl Eduard gave him one in 1935 and the last... ????

That must be correct: He must have got his HSH2bX in the 30s. Two commander crosses on his ribbon bar. Last one - a Swedish Sword Order Commander:

[Claudio]

Now it makes all sense... the SEHO mit Schwertern am Ring is quite typical class being awarded by the duke - illegally (since the duchy didn't exist anymore) - in the 30ies... I couldn't distinguish the colors of the last ribbon on the first pictures. Very very nice ribbon and medal bars!

Thanks for showing us!

Ciao,

[Mike Dwyer]

Now it makes all sense... the SEHO mit Schwertern am Ring is quite typical class being awarded by the duke - illegally (since the duchy didn't exist anymore) - in the 30ies... I couldn't distinguish the colors of the last ribbon on the first pictures. Very very nice ribbon and medal bars!

Thanks for showing us!

Ciao,

Perhaps I tend to be too picky about some terminology used when describing these old orders, but I am not comfortable with the blanket use of the statement "...illegallly (since the duchy didn't exist anymore)" The SEHO is a House Order, not a state order. It may have been "illegal" under German law for the duke to award them, but under internationally recognized chivalric practice a house order belongs to the house, not the state, and the head of the house may award that order as long as the house exists. There are many heads of former reigning houses today that still award their respective house orders, and while perhaps not recognized by their former countries, it is recognized as legitimate by the chivalric community.

The International Commission on Orders of Chivalry, http://www.icocregister.org/2006main.htm, has a list of recognized house order (they refer to them as dynastic orders) and the SEHO is on the list. Here is a page from the Ducal House web page with a photo of Prinz Hubertus wearing the grand cross of the order http://www.sachsen-coburg-gotha.de/?Das_He...bprinz_Hubertus and a page on their house order http://www.sachsen-coburg-gotha.de/?Das_He...shaus:Hausorden

Edited August 9, 2008 by Mike Dwyer

[Guest Rick Research]

Ah! That's what I thought, Chris! Though the too-pale stripes on the looks-like-a-Friedrich-August-Medal confused me.

Carl Eduard-- who was a, ahem, "joiner," (he also liked to dress up in various Freikorps gear ) handed this partiacular variety out to his Nazi buddies (the ones who weren't shot along with Ernst the year before)...

whereupon der F?hrer slammed down a ban on the receipt of former dynastic awards thereafter by citizens of the Third Reich. The Kaiser, for instance, had continued handing out his version of the Hohenzollern House Order in the 1920s to people as odd as celebrity-of-the-moment aviators. The dutiful Prince of Hohenzollern NEVER stopped handing out his version to his neighbors and former subjects thoughout the 1920s, 1930s, and 1940s.

The particular "swords on ring" awards of 1935 are not, strictly speaking, "ordinary" versions of Coburg's share of the combined Ernestine House Order. They are "one time" NAZI awards.

We are also tracking down-- documentation has not yet become available, being family property-- WW2 awards of Lippe-Detmold's House Order "with Swords" in classes which were WILDLY inappropriate to Landeskinder (?) recipients.

So some royal houses even ignored Hitler.

But all of these Third Reich era awards were "improper" by pre-1919 standards and statutes and some like this version of Ernestine existed ONLY under the Third Reich. While Ernestines with Swords-on-ring were not specifically mentioned in the 1957 regulations concerning Bundesrepublik wear of Third Reich awards, they would certainly have been "unerw?nscht" as politically tainted-- which was hardly the case with "old form" awards to citizens of Hohenzollern, by contrast.

[Christian J]

Gentlemen,

a very informative thread.

Is this mans connection with Sweden known?

Was wondering if the putting of an foreign (or domestic) neckaward on a ribbonbar or an medalbar, was usual and were not seen as a lack of common courtesy, as i've never seen it before.

[Guest Rick Research]

The practice of "Kleindekoration" wear-- reduced form of inconvenient awards being placed on a medal bar or ribbon bar, was common in the old Austro-Hungarian army.

I have never seen ANY official authorization for this practice in the German armies, but it was done enough to make identifying groups because it was purely at the wearer's whim and they are hard to identify if anonymous.

Vizeadmiral zS Joachim Lietzmann, here, wore his Bulgarian Military Merit Order, Swedish Vasa (!!!??? verified) Order, Hungarian Merit Order, and Japanese Order of the Sacred Treasure--all Commander grades-- as Kleindekorations on the second row of his ribbons, before his Italian Order of the Crown (officer--should have a French style rosette) and Danish Dannebrog Order-Knight:

This allowed for a much more impressive looking array of ribbons than simply NOT wearing all those bouncing, jingling things around the neck every day. :rolleyes:

[Christian J]

Ah, so it was that you were mentioning in the "Madness" thread, somehow it never clicked at this end.

Thank you for explaining it. A shame the medalbar in that thread was butchered, as it would've been nice to see.