My new ribbon bars

[Noor]

Hi all,

Here is some of my new ribbon bars what I got over the trade yesterday.

Here they are....

Is it W?rttemberg Merit Cross with Swords (Verdienstkreuz mit Schwerten) on the second place following by Schaumburg-Lippe Cross of Loyal Service (Kreuz f?r Treue Dienste)? Then Lippe-Detmold War Merit Cross, Oldenburg, Hamburg Hanseatic cross and Austria?

Whats the wise guys think? Was the owner NCO/officer/or impossible to say? Why so many different awards from different German states?

Edited August 9, 2008 by Noor

[Noor]

next one must be W?rttemberg officer with his Military Merit Order! Great device by the way, first one wht I have now!

Packaging is odd - brown.

[Noor]

My 3rd ribbon bar! Looks like officer to me because the device on Austrian award . So, in this case the Bavarian award is MVO as well instead of MVK?

Whats the third ribbon??? Its wrong place for Wilhelm I Commemorative Medal 1897 or can it be Baden Merit Medal because 4th looks like Bronze Jubilee medal 1902?????

Also whats the last ribbon, is it Turkish?

[Noor]

And last two looks like a set....

Whats the story with the PrAE - first five place ribbon bar is missing this award and same time there is already Hindenburg cross.... did they got PrAE after the 1933 even or its just shows that those two can't be a set?

Is it looks Kriegsmarine because the campaigns + Hamburg coss?

[paddywhack]

i had these for about 2 days before noor had them half inched off me!!!!!!! but he dangled some stuff in front of me i had to have!!!!(he would make a great politician or loan shark!!! )but there in a great home so no worries i guess!! :beer:

[Guest Rick Research]

1) Very very interesting. The Wtbg Merit Cross X suggests somebody in the lucky Vizefeldwebel to overage Feldwebelleutnant range. There is no long service award which siuggests either that he didn't have an IX in 1914 and went out as a Leutnant aD or was a Landwehr type. Notice how the Oldenburg ribbon has been carefully folded (neatly done) so a full size width fits on there? That suggests either wartime field done, or 1920s poverty. Luckily Daniel will be publishing the WVKX roll with all his other W?rttemberg work next year I hope. There aren't that many to non-natives. While there are no rolls for any of these other awards, just knowing who the "Prussians" or naval recipients were would allow for trying to figure out who'd have been most likely to get this very unusual combination. Daniel's roll could then be checked with Detmold Archives LKr award receipts and... phenomenal amount of time and effort to satisfy curiosity, eh?

2) NAUGHTY non-commissioned officer!!! Second ribbon is for the Gold Military Merit Medal, NOT the Order-- wreath is gold, not green enamelled. He should NOT be wearing both MMM ribbons since the Gold replaced the Silver. Dark blue ribbon, plain, on that brown backing I would think is more likely to be that he was in the Reichs Arbeits Dienst in the late 1930s than that a Prussian (or W?rttemberger) got both MMS and no Wtbg long service award during the war.

3) Very nice indeed. A wartime bar-- note the early hinge for the pin, Feldgrau backing, and no long service award though he was in the military before 1897. BMV4X so still a Hauptmann when he got that. 1897 so joined no later than 1896. BADEN 1902 Jubilee, so he was in a Baden unit at THAT time. The X on the Austrian ribbon is unusal since Germans usually used the round wreath. That certainly helps date this as 1917+. Yes, last ribbon is Turkish War Medal star. SO: undoubtedly a Major aD after the war. Again with a hellacious amount of work, checking the names of every Leutnant (and ONLY Leutnants) in Baden units in 1902 against those NOT in a Baden unit in 1914, with no awards then, cross-checked against the BMV4X Roll (so far published only for Hauptleute up-- and he'd have had to hae been a Hauptmann by 1912/13 at the latest)... an enormous amount of time and effort would turn up his name with the right reference sources: 1902 and 1914 Rank Lists, Honor Rank List/"Dead Prussians" (scratch anyone not alive in 1917) and the already published Bavarian WW1 Rolls.

Of course a new and improved and added to/corrected version will be along, soon I hope.

Bars 1 and 3 are the sort of potentially identifiable bars that HAVING THE BOOKS would allow you to spend many happy hours/days/weeks sorting out-- because you could not PAY somebody what the time involved would/should COST. (I am very glad I don't have to pay me for my services, and those who receive my services for free when I am intrigued and have enough time to try should be very very glad indeed they aren't on Billable Hours, oh my.... )

4) Yes, a set. This does not appear to have been fiddled with. Why one ribbon would be left off... who knows? I cannot imagine what the Gen Dec/Red eagle ribbon could actually BE,when there is no Imperial long service ribbon at all-- and the 40 Years Nazi Treudienstkreuz suggests continuous military/civil service from no later than 1902. Any career NCO or PO would have had a long service award BEFORE the war, and no officer would have gotten an RAO4 without a long service award. This is a mystery only the full size medaal bar will resolve. Since the two ribbon bars have stayed together, chances are that Somewhere Out Theer IS that medal bar-- and some NITWIT split them up.

Keep your eyes open for the medal bar to surface.

[Noor]

Thanks Rick for all the great information! :beer:

[Noor]

Hello again,

Here is some another questions...

1st bar

Is it Saxe-Ernestine House Order or Cross fo the second place/or they used swords for bouth type of awards? Why there is no LS award? Can it show that the owner was NCO and got the cross + General Decoration?

[Noor]

2nd is Bavaria ribbon bar.. BUT... why LS award is first?!?!?!?! And the pin system looks very strange as well or is it something what I just don't know?

Also the last ribbon - is it Pfalzmedaille,1930?

[Noor]

Next question...

Thats Bremen on second place, am I right?

But now whats here on the second place? Can't find three red stripes ribbon from "B?nderkatalog"

[Noor]

Question 4 - just can someone please confirm that the first ribbon is W?rttemberg Military Merit medal

Edited August 11, 2008 by Noor

[Noor]

And last just showing one my Austrian bar

[Guest Rick Research]

Silver X on Ernestine could be: EH3bX (Knight 2nd Class of the Order--almost certainly what this is-- a WW1 Lieutenant's bar) OR the Silver Merit Cross X OR a Silver Medal X. 3rd ribbon is Hamburg Hanseatic Cross.

Actually-- pin to the armpit side-- the Bavarian trio has its Xs upside down. That is undoubtedly meant to be the rare Pfalzmedaille (pale blue) but is actually the Schaumburg-Lippe Cross for Loyal Service (dark blue). This is "no one will notice... close enough..."

The same with the OOPS Bremen second ribbon bar. They didn't get thr correct number of stripes. :cheeky:

[Noor]

They didn't get thr correct number of stripes.

And again - I believed all the time that germans are famous about they punctuality

Thanks Rick for your help!

Next question...

Owner was Kriegsmarine officer? Like i understand, those two is a set? But is it possible to ID them or is it one another "invisible" group because lack of "right awards"?

[Noor]

Does someone have a picture of the Bavaria Pfalzmedaille? Also some information about that award would be great :unsure:

[Noor]

:unsure:

[Ulsterman]

Noor:

There's a wealth of information in Hessenthal and Schreiber's book: "Die Ehrenzeichen des Deutsches Reich". I believe Paul C. has one on CD for @$25 US or so.

The BayernPfalz medal #339g: a post revolution dynastic award that was allowed/tolerated by the Nazis as they seem to have had a bit of a soft spot for the Wiittelsbachs and Bavaria in general ("Ach so, du bist ein Munchner"!).

It's also sometimes called the "Rupprecht medal" and of dark bronze. There were about 500 or so of the medal given out to dynastic adherents and old vets who were at the Pfalzischen war reunion as Rupprecht was the head of the Pfalz war veterans association.

It had a "heavenlyblue" (azure) ribbon with a white central stripe and two equally spaced white stripes on the sides.

Edited August 16, 2008 by Ulsterman

[Noor]

Thank you Ulsterman for the information!

Here is some another bars what I just got and I have some questions.

1. Saxony? Whats the 2nd and 4th ribbons are? Is the last one Saxony Kreuz f?r freiwillige Krankenpflege im Frieden, 1912-1914 (only similar ribbon what I found on B?nderkatalog)

[Noor]

2. What award is on 3rd place? Can it be Hanseatic cross or? In this case is it in wrong place (before Hindenburg cross)

Edited August 18, 2008 by Noor

[Noor]

3. Bavarian ribbon bar like I understand (Southern style and Bavaria LS ribbon on the end?)

But why there is the swords on the EK ribbon? Can it be war period any Prussian order? Also whats the ribbon after Hindenburg cross can be?

Swords looks different as well then regular ones

[Noor]

4. last ribbon was probably LS award? Nice brown packing anyway

[HeikoGrusdat]

Hi Timo,

bar N?2 should have the Tirol medal in third place.... if there are small green stripes as I can see..... very common rememberance medal.

your saxon bar N?1 should have one of the rememberance crosses of the S?chsische Kriegerbund in last place - not so often to find.... there are many different "classes" of this inofficial award

Edited August 18, 2008 by HeikoGrusdat

[Noor]

5. 1897 Jubilee medal and Hindenburg??? How common this combination is?

[HeikoGrusdat]

N?5 is a bit unusual but not impossible........... 97 and Hindenburg, why not....

[Noor]

bar N?2 should have the Tirol medal in third place.... if there are small green stripes as I can see..... very common rememberance medal.

Oh, in this case does Tirol has to be after Hindenburg.... messy messy owner

Thank you Heiko and congratulation once again!

But my main question remains regarding this bar and those weird swords

Edited August 19, 2008 by Noor