Researching German pre-1945 medalbars

[Paul C]

For am example of a bar that should have a China/SWA/Kol medal when the Krown Order w/swords or Red Eagle Order w/swords is present see:

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=3177...mp;#entry299803

[Komtur]

In reply to:

Are you sure PRM3 in zinc are war time issues? I thought war time awards came in iron while the zinc medals were post war...

I am not 100% sure but it was the information I was given. However I will say to during the war iron was very much needed for war production. Maybe another forum member has more information.

The Prussian Red Cross Medal 3rd class where made of bronze. The material changed in June 1916 to iron. Already from January 1917 this medal was produced in zinc ("Kriegsmetall"). That short peroid of iron medals may be the reason, that they are not to frequent to be seen.

These are informations from Orden-Militaria-Magazin 87 Dezember 1998. The author Scharfenberg used a primary source: Geheimes Staatsarchiv Preu?ischer Kulturbesitz Berlin Dahlem / Acta generalia der Kgl. General-Ordens-Commission ?ber die Rothe Kreuz-Medaille 1898-1931.

The article of Elke Bannicke in Numismatisches Heft 3 / 1996 published the numbers of medals produced in the Berliner M?nze:

Bronze: 41.900 (1898-1916)

Eisen: 17.900 (1916)

Zink: 61.020 (1916-1921) (50.000 by Berliner M?nze and 11.020 by firm Oertel)

However the iron version is not really rare.

Best regards, Komtur.

Edited October 31, 2008 by Komtur

[Guest Rick Research]

Very interesting numbers-- thanks!

It is difficult to tell when bronze ones were made-- on a 1930s medal bar, was an example an OLD one or a NEW replacemnet for one of the horrible zink ones?

But I'd have said about 5 ot 6 zinks turn up for every bronze... and I've never seen a steel.

I wish I still had the round shaped but ZINK one I had on a bar with the 1902 Baden Jubilee Medal. :banger:

[Paul C]

We now know that the best sources for researching officers and tracing medal bars are the ranklists and award rolls. Are there other sources? What if the officer was a reserve or landswehr office? Another source is the state and court handbooks, i.e. Prussian Hof und Staat Handbuch, Deutschen Reich Handbuch. While most states did publish a pre-1914 state and court book not all published a wartime book. I know that Prussian, The German Reich, Brunswick and Mecklenburg-Schwirn did. The state and court books list officials of the court and state and their awards. These books are great for finding wartime awards for reserve or landswehr officers and also list awards that the award rolls may not exist for, i.e. EK2W.

The below medal bar consists of:

1. 1914 Ek2

2. Hamburg Hanseatic

3. Mecklenburg MMV2 on red band (NK)

4. Hessen General Honor Medal

5. Hindenburg NK

6. Reserve 20 year long service (LD1)

Generally this bar would be hopeless to trace. The award rolls Hessen General Honor Decoration do not exist at this time and outside of the state and court books the MMV2NK is not listed anyway. So are we unable to trace this bar or is there a chance? The bar is traced to a Dr. Czeh in the 1918 Prussian Hof und State book. His entry does not have him listed with the HH but from another source I was able to confirm it. The State and Court books are invaluable to tracing bars.

[Paul C]

Dr. Czeh entry from the 1918 Prussian Hof und Staathandbuch

[Paul C]

One of the best sources for tracing a WWI bar is with the Reichwehr Rangliste. This is a usefull source IF the person stayed in during the 1919-1933 period. After 1933 the Army ranglistes were not published with awards. Keep in mind that the Reichwehr was very small, undetr 100,000 men. So the chances of finding an officer are slim. But it is always possible and the best place to start expecially if you see a double long service award of 25 and 12 year on a ribbon bar or medal bar. The below medal bar just sold at the Theis auction. The combination of awards was easy to find in the 1924 Reichwehr Rangliste. All awards from this bar are listed except for the Centennial and the Hungarian campaign medal. You would need a 1897 Army Ranklist to verify that the person would have received the Centennial. In this case it was a perfect match to GL Adolf Wilhelm Janssen. he did have 1939-1945 service and was in the Reichwehr. So again you need the correct resourse and a combination of resources for a positive ID.

[Paul C]

Janssen 1924 Reichwehr Rangliste entry

[saschaw]

One question to the much more experienced collectors: when is a combination unique? How do we see that? I'm always guessing at this and am not too bad, but cannot be sure. I know unique combinations of e.g. Great War awards and I know common combinations. But what about combinations that may be twice or trice existing under slightly different circumstances, other units etc.? Or is not such a thing... ?

[Ed_Haynes]

This touches, I think, on a point that has confused me for some time. OK, I may confuse easily. But:

-- Given group "G" with awards "A, B, C, D".

-- It is possible to say that these awards were given to individual "X".

-- Cannot individuals "Y" or "Z" also have been given these awards? Would research reveal the non-unique entitlement seen in group "G?

-- How can one say that group "G" belongs to individual "X" and not to the (unknown?) others?

As I distantly recall from Logic 101, this situation had a name.

A parallel case: Seeing an unnamed British WWII trio of MC, 1939-45 Star, and War Medal gives a group that may have been awarded to Capt. "M". But also to "N", "O", "P", "Q", and a host of others? On what basis can one assert it is "M"'s??

Tell me what I am missing by being so confused?

[Guest Rick Research]

The answers ares very simple, and allow for peaceful sleep at night.

1) Rank Lists (person with Seniority x# years must be listed-- they are not invisible, and

2) award rolls-- listing EVERYBODY, allowing for checks on combinations, deaths, etc etc etc.

3) COMBINATIONS being the key-- and almost invariably, the more there are the easier it is to EXCLUDE other "suspects" (see above)

These answers involve ENORMOUS amounts of work and expense which may-- like advanced technology versus magic-- "appear" miraculous and "instantaneous" but are anything but.

It only looks "easy" when it works--

which statistically amounts to probably 10 percent of cases, no more. Almost always, these were REGULAR OFFICERS because regular officers CAN be traced. Reservists disappear-- but reservists do not have those nice long service awards that help follow the paper trail of their military careers. (MILITARY again being the key. If there are Research Gnomes who CAN track civilians, I have yet to meet one.) So basically ONLY regular officers with distinctive, verifiable combinations CAN be identified. It may appear that results are "random" in this regard but they are most assuredly NOT.

Chances of success within a highly focussed sub-group may seem out of proportion but only because the vast majority are alreadry excluded as hopeless. In order to be "findable" one must be... findable.

As with anything arcane and obscure, decades of relentlessly poring over the same sources leave an indelible ghost image imprinted in memory which allows for readier recall than seems logical to persons who have not put their time in in Research Hell.

Case in point:

This Wehrmacht (army or navy eagles exclude the Luftwaffe) officer had 25+ years of service. The two WW1 German Orders here have known rolls. Both are consulted, pair holders found, and those checked for continuous Wehrmacht service. These are cross checked against the inter-wars Rank Lists-- confirming or exluding the Austro-Hungarian award present. Bingo.

There were TWO people with this combination of awards and seniority. TWO. Not one, TWO. The only additional clue here is that these bars were made by the Godet firm in Berlin-- which we know from distinctive construction and materials. Hey ho-- ONE of the TWO served in Berlin and the other Very Far Away. Circumstantially that indicates these were both worn by Berlin Suspect "A," though there is nothing to definitively EXCLUDE Provincial Suspect "B." One lives in hope of a portrait photo turning up showing one or the other of these bars (Otto Schickle eagles likewise distinctive) being worn.

But there are NO Mystery Suspects "C," "D," "E," "F," or "G."

Everyone is accounted for.

Total time to type this about one minute. Total time to determine that about 6 hours.

Magic.

[Guest Rick Research]

Or to summarize:

RANK LISTS, RANK LISTS, RANK LISTS.

AWARD ROLLS, AWARD ROLLS, AWARD ROLLS.

EXPERIENCE, EXPERIENCE, EXPERIENCE.

It also helps not to have a life. Oy, such personal sacrifices are involved here, persons, you have no clue. :cat:

[saschaw]

Hmm okay... so now how about that one? My guess is: unique combination. Is the only way to be sure going threw the entire rank list and threw every WW I roll, if he is not in the Reichsheer?!

In the 1913 rank list I found ONE with the pre war awards, and I could confirm the BZ3aX (and from date, the correct early war issue in gold) to him. To be honest, I did only check IR40. So IS this Ernst Kaether's, BKom RIR40... ?

RANK LIST, AWARD ROLL. ;)

[Paul C]

Unfortunately not Kaether's bar since he also had the HOH3X, HEK3aX, BV3, BMV4XKr. What makes your bar unique is the lack of the HOH3X and HEK3aX. I find only one person with the above combination. A Major from IR 112 and OTLaD Ruppricht, I do not have a first name. It is a beautiful looking bar.

[saschaw]

What makes your bar unique is the lack of the HOH3X and HEK3aX.

...and the lack of a pre war Z?hringer.

Is it that Ruppricht that was in IR 74 in 1913? No pre war HEK3 there. Major in LIR 109, Z?hringer in November 1914. Thanks a lot, Paul! At least I tried... ;o(

[Paul C]

Yes, the Major in LIR 109. A key award roll is the HOH3X which was done years ago by Roth. I would deem it as the most important one.