Heer Anti-Partisan Badge in Gold

[Gordon Williamson]

Posted on behalf of a friend who'd like as many opinions as possible

[Stogieman]

Gordon, any chance on picking up the contrast on the front photo please? I need to see the wreath better. I prefer the round magnetic pin variant myself....... anyway, a bit clearer on the wreath please. Thanks!

[Gordon Williamson]

Any particular area of the wreath ? I can go as large as you like.

[PKeating]

First feeling is that whatever else it may or may not be, this never left a German firm during the war with a gold wash applied. The gold on the obverse looks like the gilt-in-a-bottle stuff used to touch up the antique picture frames and furniture and then given a good rubbing. Were there this much finish remaining on the obverse, there would normally be as much if not more remaining on the reverse.

[i was linking to images from my website but the link was refused because dynamic pages are disallowed so I don't have time right now to dlownload, resize and uoload them here, I will place a link to the webpage where you can see the badge in question - PK]

http://www.majorplm.com/collections/Coll-G...BH-oct2004.html

Here are some pictures of an example - Silver grade - that is widely accepted as original. It differs from the one shown above, which has a deathhead whose teeth are reminiscent of the queen bug in the Alien film. Your friend's badge is clearly trying to be like this badge, with the asymetric swastika etcerera...or perhaps it is the other way around. You see, the unpalatable truth is that nobody actually knows what is original or not when it comes to these convincing-looking examples.

This badge is supposed to have been made by C E Juncker and the hinge and hook assemblies are like those fitted by that firm to their zinc badges although I too remain unsure when it comes to that coke bottle pin. I would prefer to see a magnetic round section pin on that hinge. But the pins could have been bought in from an alternative source. Some people say that the maker wasn't Juncker. Others say that badges made after December 1944, when Juncker's factory was destroyed by bombing, were cast from issue pieces.

One thing I do know is that I was shown a badge by a recipient's grandson, on the reverse of which the recipient's details were neatly scratched and which was, IMO, unquestionably of mid-wartime origin. It was struck in feinzink, as opposed to potmetal, with a good quality bronze lacquer reminiscent of that seen on, say, some KVK2, and had the classic midwar hinge, pin and hook assembly used by Juncker. The overall strike quality and finish not only overshadowed that of 99% of the Bandenkampfabzeichen we see on the internet but conformed in my opinion, as a keen fan of Juncker decorations and badges, to the quality one expects to see of items from C E Juncker up to the effective end of their production when the factory was bombed out in 1944.

Of course, we know that some were made after the destruction of the Juncker firm and these were supposed to have been castings from a mould made from an issue badge, or so the story goes. It sounds a bit like a justification for fakes cast from an original to me. Anyway, there have been so many discussions of these badges and the only conclusion to be drawn is that when it comes to badges like the ones pictured here, we can say that some people believe in them and some don't.

Were I offered the badge about which Gordon is asking, I would not buy it. Even if it is a genuine variant, someone has played about it by trying to make it into a Gold grade.

PK

[Gordon Williamson]

I don't think the gilding is the picture framing stuff. I've removed that gunk from several tarted-up KM badges and it is very easy to remove. This stuff definitely isn't the same. Its quite common to find late war KM badges where the gilding is only on the front so gilding both sides isn't neccessarily a pre-requisite for originality on 3rd Reich badges.

I very much doubt that Juncker ever made the semi-hollow cast badges and the fact that the characteritics differ greatly to original Juncker pieces precludes any possibility that the firm could have used an original solid die struck version as a " master" for these cast versions. Personally, I'd be very surprised if there was any link between Juncker and the semi hollow badges.

I know what you mean about that lovely bronze finish of the type you can find on the better quality late war KVK2s. I've had a couple of Bronze Anti-Partisans like that in the past. This badge, to me , is one of those where the execution never quite lived up to the design. Notwithstanding the rarity, most of these you encounter, even the 100% genuine pieces, are not exactly things of beauty.

(Not that I necessarily agree on Juncker being the epitome of quality. They did some lovely stuff, but I've always thought their Knight's Crosses were crap )

I've suggested to the owner that he register and take part in the discussion, but if it does indeed turn out to be a wrong un, I think what will disappoint him most is that he got it from what is generally considered by collectors (including, I would say with certainty, yourself) to be a reputable source.

[Nick]

Gordon

Can we have a close up of the skull please.

I have a love hate relationship with these badges. More verging on the hate

the unpalatable truth is that nobody actually knows what is original or not when it comes to these convincing-looking examples

I agree with PK that these post Junker type badges are always the most controversial and raise the most concerns. This has been compounded by an array of very good fakes that try and match this type of manufacture and design.

I can't comment on the gold wash but would like to see more closeups of the badge itself. Especially the skull.

[Gordon Williamson]

Here you go-

[PKeating]

Well, here's a turn-up! Now that I can see the one on Majorplm's Collections show case webpage, it is indeed the same badge. Here's the link: http://www.majorplm.com/collections/Coll-G...%20Gold-ST.html.

Steve Till has displayed a number of nice things on Majorplm's showcase pages. As you can see, these are his photos. He is an honest bloke. The badge is accepted by many as genuine. I recall that Steve advertised a couple of things through Majorplm but don't recall this badge being offered for sale as such. I'd have to ask the chap who actually runs Majorplm as I don't have much to do with the site on a regular basis. I sometimes offer items from my collection through the site, which is not a dealership but a collectors' showcase with a kind of classifieds section tacked onto it through which a loose group of friends and acquaintances sometimes sell stuff. Buyers are always referred to the vendors and deal with them directly. Sometimes people contact buyers directly when their items are credited on the For Sale and Collections pages.

Some people believe this badge to be real. Some don't. Your mate clearly ran across someone who doesn't. Which brings me back to my point that nobody actually knows what is original and what isn't. I have seen three real badges, with a direct line to the recipients, and none of them looked anything like 99/100 of the badges in circulation. But as they didn't have hallmarks/makers' marks, who knows who made them? They were certainly of the quality I'd expect of Juncker but that could stand for several other firms as well.

I agree that C E Juncker may have made solid-backed Bandenkampabzeichen but can anyone prove it? Could I prove that the three badges I liked - observed in the past thirty years - were genuine? No, not at all. They were probably genuine and I would buy any of the three were someone to offer one to me today. But all these other badges? Well...I wouldn't buy them. This ex-Steve Till badge may well be original. On the other hand, the Silver grade shown on our site could be original. They both purport to be the same type of badge so one of them must, obviously, be a fake.

Which one is it? Lots of people have opinions but nobody can prove any of them. Your mate ought to put it up for sale. One of the people who believes in it will buy it, just as he bought it from Steve Till. The people who believe in it would scoff at any of the three badges I remember as being most likely to be original.

Which is why, like the Godet Oakleaves and other things, I do not have a Bandenkampabzeichen in my collection.

PK

Edited November 7, 2005 by PKeating

[Guest martin taylor]

Good afternoon gents, just regstered up.

Gordon - hope you are well, thanks for posting the close ups of the gold Anti Partisan badge for me.

Yes - this is indeed a badge that I purchased about 18 months ago and until now, one that I have had little doubt about it. At the time of buying I received many positive comments on it.

I am certainly no expert on Anti Partisans and I am not making any sweeping judgements. However - I have indeed received some recent negative feedback on this badge and understandably, am keen to seek constructive comment and draw on the knowledge of other collectors. Can I begin by focusing on a few of the key points that a distinguished collector recently brought to my attention.

A) size - the badge is 2mm smaller than a lot of other known/suspected originals in almost all respects. I appreciate that the AP was made by a plethora of different companies and that also, that shrinkage is inevitable but 2mm seems like quite a big difference? Placed beside a lot of other badges that I have seen, those 2mm really stand out.

B) the twist and cut out on the left is much more aggressive than most other badges.

Your views would be greatly appreciated.

[Nick]

Martin

Welcome to the forum. I am afraid the problem with these badges is that for every person who says they like this badge you will get another who says they don't. There are far too many self appointed experts out there who would give you any number of reasons why they don't like it or why they do.

As Prosper has highlighted because of this 'unknown' element many collectors would not touch any Bandenkampfabzeichen.

I can't claim to know any more than the average collector. I have had one of these in my collection in the past which I was 99% sure was original, but as with all these badges I couldn't be 100% certain. But this does not help you, nor will my response as I may be right or may be wrong in my assessment.

But rather than sit on the fence I will stick my neck out and say that I don't particularly like the lack of detail on this badge. The skull lacks detail as well as the acorns on the wreath. I have found that this type of semi hollow backed vacuum cast award may be pretty rough in appearance and finish, but what they shouldn't lack is detail. What I perceive to be good awards have a lot of detail on the obverse. It may just be the photo, but your badge to me lacks detail.

Nick

[PKeating]

In the case of a material like zinc or pot metal, shrinkage would be quite substantial and more pronounced than the shrinkage that occurs with denser metals like bronze or bronze-based alloys. It is believed that badges were cast from an issue piece in 1945. If this is the case, then such badges would be at least 1mm smaller and possibly as much as 1.5mm smaller than the pattern used to make the mould. However, I am referring to crude casting as opposed to vacuum casting or centrifugal casting. I am thinking more of some local foundry pouring molten pot metal into a mould or set of moulds with drainage holes. This comparitively primitive method would result in the lack of detail to which you refer whereas vacuum casting would normally produce quite a well-detailed result, as would centrifugal casting.

I know this because I sometimes cast small parts for rare vintage motorcycle carburettors and I usually give the model several coats of heavy primer/filler paint, up to 1.5mm thick, to compensate for shrinkage, especially if casting in softish white metal to replicate mass-produced carbs from the 1930s to the 1950s. With bronze, 1mm or less will do. Where the badge is concerned, once it had been tidied up with files and so on, it is not at all surprising that it would be smaller than the otherwise identical but larger badge from which it had been cast. I suppose that this raises the question of when it was cast from the original.

Well, if it serves to reassure you at all, this badge has been displayed on Majorplm for at least two years and in all that time, the only person I can recall who ever suggested that it was no good was young Chris McClurkan, whose well-argued but, alas, weakly supported depositions on the subject of the Bandenkampfabzeichen in various forums will be recalled by many here. Consequently, one must take the view that the two people - McClurkan and the dealer to whom you offered it - who have decried it as a fake are in the minority against the thousands who have seen it on many occasions and had ample opportunity to condemn it.

It has also been cited as a reference in various forum discussions. I was even going to link the images today but had to link to the webpage instead because the link from the thumbnail on Majorplm to Steve's images was down. Then Philippe repaired the link and a couple of people got in touch with me to say, gently in case I was losing the plot, that it was the same badge! Admittedly, I don't much like it either, as I have intimated, but to paraphase George Bernard Shaw, who are we - McClurkan, your dealer and myself - against so many? I don't wish that to come across as flippant because I am actually making a reasonable point. You're understandably concerned because some dealer has told you it's bad. How qualified is the dealer to condemn this badge? I suspect that he knows no more about them, in reality, than the rest of us know, with certainty, about the Bandenkampfabzeichen.

If you intend to sell it, you ought to advertise it in various classfieds. That would be a real test. I would be surprised if you did not succeed in selling it. After all, Steve bought it in the first place, it has been much-viewed and also used as reference material in various open discussions and then, ultimately, you bought it from Steve for, I imagine, quite a lot of money. I remember a near-mint Juncker Glider Pilot Badge I had. Some fellows on another forum declared it to be a fake when I offered it for sale. I was quite despondent and then linked to the thread in question in my ad for the sake of absolute openness. It was bought by a fellow who is participating in this thread and who was very happy with his badge and who is no virgin when it comes to Luftwaffe flight badges. In retrospect, only two people condemned that Glider Badge as a fake out of all the people who saw and handled it and who offered money for it.

So, don't be too quick to take this dealer's word for it.

PK

Edited November 8, 2005 by PKeating

[Stogieman]

Yep, and a heck of a good Glider Badge it was. I miss it dearly and count selling it amongst my greatest errors. Here's the original pix that was villified by a few guys. I don't remember them, but I will not forget this badge. Photo courtesy of MajorPLM.com

[Stogieman]

Now here's my scan of the same badge a bit later.

[Stogieman]

But I digress.......... the APB badge that started this thread is not the same badge as in the MajorPLM .com photo. Why??

Wreath is different

sword is different in several places

wear pattern is different

If you look very closely, detail by detail, these 2 badges are not the same badge. The Silver example I would accept as the real McCoy, the Gold one, not so happy with. And if that's not screwy enough, the round pin ones are very different in detail/features from both of these! Trying to find fotos. I rarely enter into this hotly contested issue. Everyone has a different opinion and there's just no sure-fire way to know who's right......... this one is in unknown waters

[Gordon Williamson]

Rick,

its not the one Prosper posted a link to above. I'ts this one

http://www.majorplm.com/collections/Coll-G...%20Gold-ST.html

[Stogieman]

Hi Gordon, yes, I understand that. My point is that the gold APB in the beginning of this thread is not the same badge as the silver one. I can accept the silver one as a period badge. I have never been comfortable with the badges with the notch out of the sword and the different wreath. I believe the gold badge (and others like it) are copies of the silver badge as shown by the Major PLM photo. If at some point the silver badge proves to be a copy, then you have a gold copy of a silver copy of a ?????

Beyond this point, I think you will find that the half-hollow badges (Anti-Partisan) will have distinctly different features and details than this style with "coke bottle" pin.

[Nick]

I have not got access to my pictures of my hollow back at the moment, but there is a marked difference in detail especially on the skull. When I get them I will post them up later today.

Nick

[Stogieman]

I'm rooting through the archives for photos. No luck yet.

Prosper, I think you'll find precious few people who would comment on a badge of this style. I'm not comfortable discussing these. I don't like them at all. However, (A)I like the silver one far better than any of the multitude of "notched/twisted grip" ones floating around and (B) my "dislike" of these isn't a conclusive opinion on originality. I personally feel that the style is meant to mimic/fake something else. The quality of those is really low, even for end of war Germany. Can't prove any of it, but neither can anyone substantly disprove my opinion.

My only advice to potential owners of this badge would be to:

A) Only buy from someone who will give you a "lifetime" warranty of originality w. full refund rights.

B) Stick to the solid variants, or the "half-hollow/Round Pin" variant. My opinion, for what it's worth.

C) If you wish to buy an example of this style, see (A) above!

[Stogieman]

Well, I went through all my archives and cannot find pictures of the other variant. Anybody else have some nice clear scans of a round pin example?

[Nick]

The best photo I can find for the moment. A close up of the skull would show dotted lines on the cranium of the skull. The acorns also have stippling on the bottom shells.

[Nick]

Just for your info the award was damaged and is bent in the centre.

[Stogieman]

Notice on Nick's picture the very distinct cross-hatch on the acorns, the center of the skull and the face of the skull. Also note that on Nick's example, the die flaw is just starting to produce the "notch" below the hilt of the sword. I would submit that Nick's badge (photo) is the same as the Silver one on MajorPLM.com, whereas again, the lesser quality example shown in gold is based upon these. I think if you study these closely, you will start to see many things that are different, the (to me anyway) quite apparent difference in quality and workmanship. My two cents, for what it's worth.

[Guest WAR LORD]

I hope this helps, a few badges from the collection that as yet have been concidered original.

[Guest WAR LORD]

the next

[Guest WAR LORD]

the next