wlodzimierz Posted May 8, 2009 Author Share Posted May 8, 2009 Hi Filip, I guess that this group was not cheap. I asked for price but unfortunately he did not tell me . lg. w Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Posted May 9, 2009 Share Posted May 9, 2009 Incredible group to a very special branch! Too bad it's so difficult to find medal groups from the ex-Yugoslavia. It has to be a very rare group in the end of collectors!Thanks for sharing! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SasaYU Posted May 9, 2009 Share Posted May 9, 2009 Waldemar,here are hallmarks for precious metals in use in Yugoslavia.As for specified hallmark HJ, it should be hallmark of the manufacturer, but I am doing my research further on and I will let you know what come up. Also, I did not get the picture yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlodzimierz Posted May 9, 2009 Author Share Posted May 9, 2009 Waldemar,here are hallmarks for precious metals in use in Yugoslavia.As for specified hallmark HJ, it should be hallmark of the manufacturer, but I am doing my research further on and I will let you know what come up. Also, I did not get the picture yet.Great Sasa, maybe it will be good idea to ask Bryan to move your posting with Hallmarks as pinned into 'Important Topics' area. I think these are facts and they are important for everybody. 'HJ' must by hallmark of manufacturer, I think that in certain, very short period of time IKOM used this hallmark. It must be in 1945, since they started with production of Order of Labor and we have evidence that Order with serial number 63 has this Hallmark on it. We can see this hallmark on Order of Brotherhood and Unity 1st cl. in a range of 14xx. I saw Order of Labor 3rd cl. with Nr. 25 but there is no hallmark, maybe they put hallmark only on silver order, as it was the case with tombac order where no hallmark exisit.I think it is difficult to find his photo, since he was very high official in UDBA.BTW: you know: 'OZNA sve dosna' and I think 'UDBA xxx sudba'. I don't know how it was exactly. lg w Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luka Posted May 9, 2009 Share Posted May 9, 2009 (edited) I think it is difficult to find his photo, since he was very high official in UDBA.BTW: you know: 'OZNA sve dosna' and I think 'UDBA xxx sudba'. I don't know how it was exactly. lg wYou will find his photo very hard(maybe someday in some archive)..after all, OZNA and UDBA were notorious institutions, so it is logical that all related documents and photos are top secret and probably destroyed. Edited May 9, 2009 by Luka Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlodzimierz Posted May 9, 2009 Author Share Posted May 9, 2009 You will find his photo very hard(maybe someday in some archive)..after all, OZNA and UDBA were notorious institutions, so it is logical that all related documents and photos are top secret and probably destroyed.Thank you Luka, Let's try, but I'm afraid that you are right. How would you translate 'OZNA sve dosna'? --> 'OZNA discovers everything'?I read somewhere like that 'UDBA .... sudba', what was it?lg. w. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luka Posted May 9, 2009 Share Posted May 9, 2009 (edited) "OZNA sve dozna" > "OZNA discovers everything" or "OZNA finds out everything""UDBA...sudba" that would sound something like this: "UDBA...(is final)destiny" =deathL. Edited May 9, 2009 by Luka Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SasaYU Posted May 10, 2009 Share Posted May 10, 2009 (edited) Luka, please do not make confusion with unappropriate translations like: "UDBA...(is final)destiny" =death, that you made. Edited May 10, 2009 by SasaYU Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luka Posted May 10, 2009 Share Posted May 10, 2009 Well, maybe you could translate it better for us? :cheers: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SasaYU Posted May 10, 2009 Share Posted May 10, 2009 As I can see, you do not know full expression which goes: UDBA s...a sudba. I do not want to quote it, because I do not agree with it. Aso, I do not think that it is appropriate to link UDBA as a Direction of state security with "(is final)destiny" =death" as you imply. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SasaYU Posted May 10, 2009 Share Posted May 10, 2009 As I can see, you do not know full expression which goes: UDBA s...a sudba. I do not want to quote it, because I do not agree with it. Also, I do not think that it is appropriate to link UDBA as a Direction of state security with "(is final)destiny" =death" as you imply. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlodzimierz Posted May 10, 2009 Author Share Posted May 10, 2009 Luka, SasaYU thank you for your comments I know that there was slogan 'OZNA sve dozna', I think that both translation are correct.Concerning 'UDBA ... sudba' I tried to find out if there was similar, well known slogan. I found in internet some, bur I'm not sure about that:1. Udba nam je sudba2. Udba nije sudba3. Udba nasa sudba4. Udba kao sudbaMaybe there was no one, well known slogan concerning Udba? lg. w. :cheers: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SasaYU Posted May 16, 2009 Share Posted May 16, 2009 (edited) Here are my results of investigating "HJ" hallmarks:As we knew "HJ" is a manufacturer's hallmark. From the information I got, order was manufactured by Njilas Ivan from Subotica, Serbia. He was registrated as a manufacturer of objects from precious metals in 1948. Order was made from silver 950/1000, as can be seeen from state hallmark that can also be seen on photo of order. Edited May 16, 2009 by SasaYU Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlodzimierz Posted May 16, 2009 Author Share Posted May 16, 2009 Thank you Sasa, I must say that this information is both surprising and confusing since I never heard about Njilas Ivan. This information, if correct, would have very serious consequences in terms of production of awards in YU. It would mean that the history of production of YU awards must be re-written. Do you have more details to that workshop, what happend with it (nationalized probably), is there an index of mint marks from that time? What awards were made in that workshop?How did you find it out? Great Sasa lp. w Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SasaYU Posted May 16, 2009 Share Posted May 16, 2009 (edited) The information is most suprising to me too.I have never heard that orders and medals were made by private contractors. Maybe he was a subcontractor ? Or maybe the production of orders and medals was given to private contractors in late 40' s ?So many things yet to be discovered.I do not have information on that workshop or what orders and medals were made there, but I will shurely try to get that information.I also do not have index of mint marks from that time, but I am trying to get it.Information came from Direction for measurements and precious metals of Serbia, from the Chief of the department for precious metals.She gave me the information according to Index of mint marks of items from precious metals that that Direction has. Edited May 16, 2009 by SasaYU Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlodzimierz Posted May 16, 2009 Author Share Posted May 16, 2009 Thank you Sasa, It seems that 'HJ' could be in fact the hallmark of Workshop of Njilas Iva. If this information is correct, and you mentioned very competent official person, this information could be correct. Let's go through known facts:1. Each workshop manufacturing items made from precious metals has to put his identification on his items in order to find out who was producer, this is law. 2. Additional the producer has to put additional information about art of metal.3. And fineness of this metal (there are hallmarks which deliver both information in one hallmark)4. Mr. Rudez wrote that Order of Labor 1st cl. was made by IKOM.5. There is no information in the literature that YU Orders was made in Subotica. Do you know is there or were there 'Kovnica' in Subotica?Facts:After WWII in the second half of 1945 private Workshop 'Braca Knaus' produced YU awards, we can see 'BK' or 'GK' hallmark on Spomenica 1941. After nationalisation ('Brother Knaus' 'Sorlini i Krivak' and some smaller workshops were merged into IKOM) the factory continued to work under new name 'IKOM' Zagreb. But at the beginnig it was private owned company which produced YU awards.My theory:Serbian based small workshop of Njilas Iva produced YU awards in the second half of 1945. He manufactured Order of Brotherhood and Unity: early pieces without hallmarks (silver?). Later as soon as orders was made from silver he put his hallmark 'HJ' on them. As soon as IKOM was created production of YU awards moved to IKOM in Zagreb. Or maybe workshop of Njilas Iva was one of those small workshops which was merged into IKOM.It is quite complcated but very interesting. Great job Sasa lg. w. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SasaYU Posted May 16, 2009 Share Posted May 16, 2009 As I already wrote, he was registrated as a manufacturer of objects from precious metals in 1948.So orders made by him must be made after that period. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlodzimierz Posted May 17, 2009 Author Share Posted May 17, 2009 I asked myself why there is hallmark 'HJ' instead of 'NI' first letters of Njilas Ivan, I asked my friend in Belgrade if he knows this name or name of his workshop. He wrote me an answer which explains many open points:" 'HJ' could certainly by Cyrillic for 'NI', what could be perfectly connected with the Njilas' of Subotica hallmark. Namely, proper name, in Hungarian, would be NYILAS ISTVAN (NI), translated into Serbian to NJILAS JOVAN (NJ, in Cyrillic HJ), where "Jovan" is Serbian form of the Croatian name "Ivan", John in English. Also please note that in Hungarian language last names are written as first names, what is also often practised in Serbia and Croatia, especially in those parts which used te be under Austria-Hungary. (So in Hungarian ALL the names are spelled opposit way. Like Brando Marlon, Bush George, Broz Josp etc).Another note: Subotica, or Szabadka in Hungarian language, is in Vojvodina, on the Serbian side of the Hungarian and former Yugoslav border. It is a multi ethnic town where not only Serbs and Hungarians live, but also a large group of Croatian community, called 'Bunjevci'. That is why Istvan's name was translated once into Jovan (on the hallmark), another time into Ivan (in that register).There still live many families with that last name in Subotica.No, that workshop could not possibly be merged into IKOM, but I'm 99% sure it was nationalized and renamed to AUROMETAL - Subotica. That large and famous jewlery and precious metals factory, which still exists, have been producing many MILITARY BADGES and other military insignia. So it is very logical that at some early stage of their activities they also produced that order."We are next step closer to discover unwritten history of the production of awards in YU. Thank you Sasa for your input. lp. w Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yildirim Posted May 17, 2009 Share Posted May 17, 2009 Wlodzimierz, I'm sorry but that theory is little bit wrong, because "Istv?n" could not be translated like "Ivan" Istv?n (HU) = Stephen (ENG) = Stevan (SR) = Stjepan (CRO) J?nos (HU) = John (ENG) = Jovan (SR) = Ivan (CRO) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlodzimierz Posted May 17, 2009 Author Share Posted May 17, 2009 Thank you Yildirim it is important to know correct names, since we will try to get access to the archive of AUROMETAL - Subotica and check if this factory existed at that time, what hallmark they have used and of course if they produced orders for YU Government. Your input is very valuable and welcomed, thank you lg. w. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SasaYU Posted May 17, 2009 Share Posted May 17, 2009 One thing is certain. We have a lot of things to discover. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lightfoot Posted December 21, 2009 Share Posted December 21, 2009 Yes The name Istvan is Stefan, Steven Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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