Kriegsmarine S&L Schnellboot badge 1st model

[2dresq]

Greetings,

I have completed my KM collection as far as badges. I still plan on getting a Schwerin 1st model when I find one that is in good condition.

For now, Here is my latest acquirement.

Enjoy, and thanks for looking.

2dresq

[2dresq]

The back.

Thanks,

[Gordon Williamson]

You are a brave man to buy one of these. You'll find that opinions on these differ greatly. Some like them but I've found the majority of serious KM collectors won't touch them.

I remember when great numbers of these appeared on the market around 40 years ago, the little "o" mark led to it being labelled as S&L but some examples with other markings appeared including the Junker L/12 mark. The story going around back then was that these were leftover wartime stock with no pins which had been "refurbished" hence the pin unlike any other badges.

This type with the wierd hinge was featured in a German magazine a few years back and labelled as am out and out fake which had "erroneously been identified as S&L". (see pic attached here)

Whatever the truth of the matter they are highly controversial and a lot of people wouldn't touch one. I wouldn't have one in my collection but thats just me, some people may be happy to accept them.

[2dresq]

Thanks for the information.

The mold is similar to the Schwerin example. The edging where the head meets the beak has the same raised casting as the schwerin example.

This exact badge was used in Tom Durante's book I believe on page 290.

If you wouldn't mind, I would like to see the example from the publication that showed these "0" hallmark badges to be all fake.

I know that there was a good acquisition of display boards from S&L.. Barry Turk of emedals.ca had them for sale along some having naval awards, KC's and such.

It's a shame that I have never seen the catalogs and the company's take on their production of these awards.

Thanks,

Regards,

2dresq

[Gordon Williamson]

The photo above is the one from the article which stated that these were copies. The "o" mark is very faint in this photo which is over-exposed, but is can just be seen half way between the retaining hook and the L12 mark.

If a buyer is happen to spend his money on one, thats really all that matters. Personally, I don't believe in them. The matter is made worse of course by the knowledge that S&L continued selling their Third Reich period stuff long after the war ended so even if actually made by S&L the possibility of being postwar manufactured or assembled has to be borne in mind. Not so much a case of whether S&L made these but when they made them, pre or post May 1945. - or both !

The "o" mark certainly isn't a definitive indicator of S&L. The small raised "o" mark can also be found on other manufacturers products. I have , for instance, seen this on a Funcke & Bruninghaus U-Boat badge. (See below right, circled)

[2dresq]

These are interesting points and new facts brought to light. I was unaware that S&L continued manufacturing after the war.

This brings an interesting question. What happened to the maker companies? Did the go into a different line perhaps silverware, etc....?

Thanks again. Is that Sub badge Funcke & Bruninghaus example one you have in your collection?

Just out of curiosity, how were you able to trace it to that particular maker?

To be honest, I took the seller and previous posting of badges with the same mark to lead me to the conclusion that it was an S&L badge. I looked through a couple of books and could not find a representation of the "o" Maker mark and attribution. I don't have Tom Durante's book in which this exact badge was used for example.

It also goes to show that reference books are only as accurate as the person who is writing them.

Regards,

2dresq

[2dresq]

I don't have any examples of a schwerin example but here is a submission of the badge showing what I probably couldn't explain in my previous posting.

[Naxos]

These are interesting points and new facts brought to light. I was unaware that S&L continued manufacturing after the war.

This brings an interesting question. What happened to the maker companies? Did the go into a different line perhaps silverware, etc....?

Regards,

2dresq

Since 1889 - S & L is still in business: http://www.steinlueck.de/index.php?rubrik=startseite

[Harrier]

The "o" mark is simply a position indicator for use by workers. As far as I have been able to determine from examination of multiple examples,there are three meanings: the "o" by itself, with no adjacent hardware, simply indicates the reverse of a piece being assembled. A single "o" towards the bottom of a reverse of a piece indicates where the bottom piece of hardware (a catch) should go (or, in the case of something like the Oakleaves to the Knights Cross, where the bottom curve of the attachment loop should be). More than one "o" indicates the placement location of rivets or other "like" hardware. By example, American aircrew "wings" made in Germany after the war have "o" marks on either end of the reverse of the wings to indicate where the "posts" are soldered to the wing.

There is a lot of talk, but NO proof, that S&L really re-commenced the actual new manufacture of Nazi awards right after the war (i.e. actual die-stamping of awards). There is, on the other hand, substantial proof that it DID engage in the assembly of such awards, from leftover original stock, after the war. In the immediate postwar period, workers sold leftover stock (from S&L and other Ludenscheid companies) to soldiers as souvenirs. Some of that stock was finished and "ready for shipment". Some was not and in many cases workers assembled unfinished pieces, which are detectable by lack of finish, sloppy rivetting and poorly affixed (but all original) hardware. Later (probably beginning in the mid-1950's) original remaining (but unfinished) stamped planchets were, in fact, subjected to a sort of "manufacture process" in that they were given a "finish" (often not matching the finish used during the war) and were fitted with the type of hardware we see on 1957 type "re-issues". No one has yet been able to produce a Nazi badge from S&L which can be demonstrated to have been made right after the war "from the ground up" and using all new parts. This is heresy in much of the collecting world, but I, for one, would very much like to see any proof to the contary.

[Gordon Williamson]

There is, on the other hand, substantial proof that it DID engage in the assembly of such awards, from leftover original stock, after the war.

Exactly. And that is the story that was circulating when large numbers of these (and also other KM badges such as Marine Artillery, Minesweeper etc) appeared in large numbers many years back. It begs the question, if S&L had sufficient supplies of leftover stocks of good quality wartime pin fittings in the immediate postwar years, then why use this type of crappy fitting shown on the S-Boot, (given that the manufacture of this type ended when the 2nd Model S-Boot was introduced in 1943, well before the end of the war and when reasonably good quality fittings were still being used on all badges.)

Compare the quality with other Zinc 1st pattern S-Boot badges, Mayer, Forster & Barth, Funcke & Bruninghaus etc, all with more conventional style decent quality hinges. S&L, one of the most prestigious manufacturers, is supposed to have been reduced to using these crude "hinges" as early as 1943 ?? Doesn't ring true for me. Some people accept them, but for me these will always be, to say the least, highly suspect - not so much in terms of the badge itself which is probably left over wartime stock, but the fittings.

No one has yet been able to produce a Nazi badge from S&L which can be demonstrated to have been made right after the war "from the ground up" and using all new parts. This is heresy in much of the collecting world, but I, for one, would very much like to see any proof to the contary.

Completely agree. Which is why I find it amusing that so many people doubt that S&L made the DK during the war. If they are all fake, then it means that S&L cut an entirely new set of tooling for a Nazi award, after the war. Something I find implausible.

[Harrier]

Gordon,

I agree with with you completely.

S&L had large stocks of completed stamped planchets left in the immediate postwar period (which it had actually MADE, on premises, during the war) but DID NOT have large stocks of pins, catches, hinges, etc. (which it "outsourced" from other suppliers and did NOT make on premises). Thus, we see (once its smaller stock of fittings ran out) perfectly real planchets "married" to incorrect or unusual fittings, obtained AFTER the war, to complete badges.

To me, it makes perfect sense (given the relatively high cyclic rate of die-stamping) that there would almost always be more stamped planchets already existing in on-premises stock than there would be the fittings necessary to complete all that had been stamped. S&L would have enough fittings to complete a specific order (and some extras), but would not re-order fittings until they were needed to process another actual order. After the war, they were able to complete some badges with what was "on-hand", but before too long had to resort to fittings never originally used on a particular badge during the war itself. Who knows where these new fittings came from?

Regards,

Harrier

[2dresq]

I thought I would supply some better shots and show the catch and the pin assembly and mounting to the plate.

Here are some better shots.

[2dresq]

Here are a few others.