Flammenwerfer! Flames, skulls and stuff

[Thomas W]

Pooh-pooh! :-)

Let''s hear your theory. What's that sleeve badge; why does Sturmbatailllon Nr. 2 have a highly decorated Pionier when everyone else is wearing the standard infantry uniform; and why doesn't the death book of the Garde-Reserve-Pionier Regiment have any name on or near October 6-7, 1918, even though all American reports of the flamnethrower attacks mention multiple pioneers killled?

[Chris Boonzaier]

Pity that guy hadn't turned his sleeve full on towards the camera !!

If he had... even this tenuous bit of "proof" would escape your desperate clutches ;-)

:lol:

[Thomas W]

Or.... a parcel of badges were sent to the Rohr detachment with a directive vague enough that they sewed it on where they did... later they met up with the "others" who said ..."What the hell!?!?!?" ... but by then it was too late.

I think supposition is dangerous ground here. :-)

Supposition is never dangerous, and besides, every known photo of Rohr with badges show them wearing said badge in the position below the elbow. Why would that unit get it wrong, while every other flamethrower pioneer got it right? The Crown Prince's letter said it was to be worn on the "lower left sleeve." Rohr's men wore it on the middle of the left sleeve.

[Chris Boonzaier]

Let''s hear your theory. What's that sleeve badge; why does Sturmbatailllon Nr. 2 have a highly decorated Pionier when everyone else is wearing the standard infantry uniform; and why doesn't the death book of the Garde-Reserve-Pionier Regiment have any name on or near October 6-7, 1918, even though all American reports of the flamnethrower attacks mention multiple pioneers killled?

The Argonne was in Chaos at that time, units were disolving and dissapearing... do we have any proof that the records of the FW losses are Lückenlos?

As i have stated before, i have played around with BW photography for ages, it is not hard for grey to appear as black, and even then, I dont think there is enough visable on that photo to even make a guestimate.

Best

Chris

[Thomas W]

If he had... even this tenuous bit of "proof" would escape your desperate clutches ;-)

Nobody used the word "proof." I said, "as close as we've come yet to finding period, photographic confirmation."

But it's good to know that responses can be predicted down to the letter. That's what makes studying history so much fun.

Edited April 14, 2012 by Thomas W

[Chris Boonzaier]

Supposition is never dangerous, and besides, every known photo of Rohr with badges show them wearing said badge in the position below the elbow. Why would that unit get it wrong, while every other flamethrower pioneer got it right? The Crown Prince's letter said it was to be worn on the "lower left sleeve." Rohr's men wore it on the middle of the left sleeve.

"Lower Left Sleeve" could be interprated as anywhere below the elbow.

Every other flamethrower Pionier may have been detached, but was still under the regt, while the Rohr FW had a certain autonomy and isolation from the parent unit. Send a parcel of badges to a Lt in another sector of front and say "wear these on the lower arm"... and it is open to a certain interpretation.

Back then 200km aways was REALLY 200kms away, no quick follow up SMS to clear things.

Best

Chris

[Thomas W]

The Argonne was in Chaos at that time, units were disolving and dissapearing... do we have any proof that the records of the FW losses are Lückenlos?

As i have stated before, i have played around with BW photography for ages, it is not hard for grey to appear as black, and even then, I dont think there is enough visable on that photo to even make a guestimate.

Best

Chris

The regimental death book was based on multiple sources. Not one of the 14 flamethrower operators who were killed serving in Rohr's unit are mentioned in the regimental death book, but men were clearly transferred out of Rohr's unit into Reddemann's. Rohr had special privileges, including allowing his men to wear their sleeve badges higher than the postion prescribed by the directive issued by the Kaiser.

It's entirely possible that Strunbataillon Nr. 2 had it's platoon of flathrower pioneers with it's own insigina. That's my SUPPOSITION, and it harms nothing.

[Thomas W]

"Lower Left Sleeve" could be interprated as anywhere below the elbow.

Every other flamethrower Pionier may have been detached, but was still under the regt, while the Rohr FW had a certain autonomy and isolation from the parent unit. Send a parcel of badges to a Lt in another sector of front and say "wear these on the lower arm"... and it is open to a certain interpretation.

Back then 200km aways was REALLY 200kms away, no quick follow up SMS to clear things.

Best

Chris

The badges weren't sent in a parcel and the men told to slap them somewhere on their sleeves. They were presented as an offical award of the Kaiser, with specific rules on how and when they were to be worn.

Officers wore then directly above the cuff of all tunics; enlisted men wore them directly above the cuff of the M.1907/10 tunic; and enlisted men wore them on the cuff of the simplified tunic and blouse. All except for Rohr's men. But that was just sloppiness, by this spit-and-polish, elite, favorite unit of the Crown Prince, the man who talked his father into awarding the badge.

"Heck, guys! Put it on wherever you want! What do I care?"

Edited April 14, 2012 by Thomas W

[Robin Lumsden]

........ would escape your desperate clutches ;-)

Chris.

I can assure you, my clutches are far from 'desperate'.

[Robin Lumsden]

PS -

Chris.

Remember who put you on to .......................

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php/topic/13054-the-absoluteholy-grail/page__hl__flammenwerfer

Keep the faith, brother.

;)

[Robin Lumsden]

Remember this ........... (Post #15) ?

I will be drinking a beer in your honour tonight ;-)

Lighten up, Chris.

This is meant to be a happy, mutually-supportive place.

:)

[Robin Lumsden]

PPS ................

I trust I won't be banned for this 'criticism' of a mod. !

After all, this isn't the 'other place' ! ;)

[Thomas W]

Remember this ........... (Post #15) ?

I will be drinking a beer in your honour tonight ;-)

Lighten up, Chris.

This is meant to be a happy, mutually-supportive place.

I've just been offered a book contract for my memoirs, titled Ghosts and Ballyhoo: Memoirs of a Failed L.A. Music Journalist.

There are many parallels between the world of music journalism and the world of military history.

I got out of the world of music journalism because in the end it was the wrong fit for me. I ended up not being able to take the rigid, absolutely inflexible mindset of of so many people in that industry. They rejected, mocked, and dengirated all ideas that didn't fit into their preconceived notions.

They drove me out of that industry.

Once I set up my Website, Facebook account, and Flickr stream to promote my trilogy of books on flamethrower and assault troops, I'm going to spend all my time writing my memoir. Then it's on to fiction.

I'm pretty much done with this field. It's too similar to the one that almost killed me.

But I always appreciated your positive, enthusiastic, suportive attitude, Robin. In fact, if you PM me, I'm want to send you a copy of my new book:

http://www.schifferbooks.com/newschiffer/book_template.php?isbn=9780764340369

It's the ultimate resource on the topic, and it has the only published photo of a Brandröhre, the only known photo of a device for priming and throwing grenades one handed, previously unkown shock-troop insignia, previously unknown helmet-cover insignia--everything that will make people laugh and sneer and shake their heads.

In other words, you'll love it. So send me that PM, okay?

Tom

[Robin Lumsden]

I've just been offered a book contract for my memoirs, titled Ghosts and Ballyhoo: Memoirs of a Failed L.A. Music Journalist.

There are many parallels between the world of music journalism and the world of military history.

I got out of the world of music journalism because in the end it was the wrong fit for me. I ended up not being able to take the rigid, absolutely inflexible mindset of of so many people in that industry. They rejected, mocked, and dengirated all ideas that didn't fit into their preconceived notions.

They drove me out of that industry.

Once I set up my Website, Facebook account, and Flickr stream to promote my trilogy of books on flamethrower and assault troops, I'm going to spend all my time writing my memoir. Then it's on to fiction.

I'm pretty much done with this field. It's too similar to the one that almost killed me.

But I always appreciated your positive, enthusiastic, suportive attitude, Robin. In fact, if you PM me, I'm want to send you a copy of my new book:

http://www.schifferb...n=9780764340369

It's the ultimate resource on the topic, and it has the only published photo of a Brandröhre, the only known photo of a device for priming and throwing grenades one handed, previously unkown shock-troop insignia, previously unknown helmet-cover insignia--everything that will make people laugh and sneer and shake their heads.

In other words, you'll love it. So send me that PM, okay?

Tom

Tom.

Done ! :)

[Chris Boonzaier]

Chris.

I can assure you, my clutches are far from 'desperate'.

I refer to your need to get this one okeyed ;-)

[Chris Boonzaier]

Rohr had special privileges, including allowing his men to wear their sleeve badges higher than the postion prescribed by the directive issued by the Kaiser.

Hi,

Where can we read that?

Best

Chrus

[Chris Boonzaier]

The badges weren't sent in a parcel and the men told to slap them somewhere on their sleeves. They were presented as an offical award of the Kaiser, with specific rules on how and when they were to be worn.

Officers wore then directly above the cuff of all tunics; enlisted men wore them directly above the cuff of the M.1907/10 tunic; and enlisted men wore them on the cuff of the simplified tunic and blouse. All except for Rohr's men. But that was just sloppiness, by this spit-and-polish, elite, favorite unit of the Crown Prince, the man who talked his father into awarding the badge.

"Heck, guys! Put it on wherever you want! What do I care?"

That is a total misrepresentation of what I posted.

first off, the badges must have been sent to the Rohr men, so a parcel sounds logical.

secondly, unless we have a copy of the accompanying letter, we have no idea how clear the instructions were about exactly where they should be on the sleeve. Noone says everyman could slap them on wherever they wanted, but the commander of the section must have given the tone.

There is a precedent to my theory, the Alpenkorps. early photos shown when the Edelweiss was sent to the units show some units out at the front interpretated the just where and how it should be worn with a degree of personal initiative until it filtered down just how it should REALLY be worn.

[Chris Boonzaier]

PS -

Chris.

Remember who put you on to .......................

http://gmic.co.uk/in...__flammenwerfer

Keep the faith, brother.

Indeed... that is why my sister would be yours any time you wanted, if I had had one :-)

[Chris Boonzaier]

Remember this ........... (Post #15) ?

I will be drinking a beer in your honour tonight ;-)

Lighten up, Chris.

This is meant to be a happy, mutually-supportive place.

I agree, and I enjoy this thread immensely, it is a lively discussion and should be seen as such.

[Thomas W]

Hi,

Where can we read that?

Best

Chrus

Well, "Chrus," you can read it in all three of my books, for one.

I assume you mean, "Which German order allowed Rohr's men to wear their badges in a position higher than that specified by the Kaiser's order"?

No idea. See, most of the records of the German imperial army were destroyed in World War II. So, what I did was examine the dozens of photos I've seen, and they were all consistent--meaning, never once did I see a member of Rohr's flamethrower platoon wearing his badge in the position used by the men in Reddemann's unit.

What I did was make a deduction based on physical evidence and reasoning.

There are no orders stating that the Rohr Flamethrower platoon could wear a "5" on the shoulder strap, but they did! They're the only Guard Pioneers with numerals on the shoulder straps. Rohr's unit was called the Crown Prince's favorite, so I deduced that these uniform anomalies were special provileges, like the fact that Rohr's unit was the only assault battalion with its own permanent howitzer battery. None of the 14 flamethrower pioneers of Rohr's unit killed in action are mentioned in the death book of the flamethrower regiment. I therefore deduced that while serving with Rohr's unit, they were separated completely from the flamethrower regiment instead of temporarily attached, as they were for all other assault battalions. More special privileges.

Did I find an order specifying that flamethrower pioneers were separated from the flamethrower regiment when serving with Rohr's unit? Nope. I deduced it, because that's what the evidence indicates.

I couldn't find the orders that allowed shock troops to write "St" on their Überzug, but photos of it are in my new book. I couldn't find the orders that showed grenadiers putting egg grenades into socks and throwing them by whirling them over their heads, but I put photos of them doing so in my new book.

You could argue that since no official orders are found allowing any of these things, then they didn't exist. That's cool.

I approach things differently, which is why the military-history field is a bad fit for me, the way music journalism was. I expected people to be interested and open to new ideas. Instead, all they do is cover their eyes or mock.

It's okay by me. My trilogy of books has been written, and that's all I'll have to say on the subject. You can wait until they find an order specifying that Rohr's men wore their badges in a different position before you believe it.

I predict you'll wait for the rest of your life. Me, I made a deduction, and I'm satisfied with my reasoning.

But I'm a weirdo!

Edited April 15, 2012 by Thomas W

[Thomas W]

That is a total misrepresentation of what I posted.

first off, the badges must have been sent to the Rohr men, so a parcel sounds logical.

secondly, unless we have a copy of the accompanying letter, we have no idea how clear the instructions were about exactly where they should be on the sleeve. Noone says everyman could slap them on wherever they wanted, but the commander of the section must have given the tone.

There is a precedent to my theory, the Alpenkorps. early photos shown when the Edelweiss was sent to the units show some units out at the front interpretated the just where and how it should be worn with a degree of personal initiative until it filtered down just how it should REALLY be worn.

Yeah, early photos show the Alpenkoprs men wearing their badges until it filtered down just how it should be worn.

Every photo I've seen of Rohr's flamethrower men, all the way to the end of the war, shows the badge in the same position. Not only that, every man of Rohr's flamethrower platoon wore it in the same position.

You argued earlier that maybe they all just started wearing it in the wrong positon and it stayed there, but now you're arguing that badges could be worn in the wrong position until official word filtered down.

You just confirmed my deduction, that Rohr's men had special privileges to wear their badge in their own special position, because either they got it wrong and were then allowed to keep it wrong for the duration of the war (special privilege), or they were allowed to wear it in a different position from the beginning (special privilege).

So, we agree. Rohr's men had special privileges.

Edited April 15, 2012 by Thomas W

[Chris Boonzaier]

I approach things differently, which is why the military-history field is a bad fit for me, the way music journalism was. I expected people to be interested and open to new ideas. Instead, all they do is cover their eyes or mock.

Tom, you get me wrong.

I dont want to cover my eyes. When you show a photo where you see a badge, I WANT to see it, i study it, would even turn my screen on its head if need be, but when i cannot see it, I cannot.

And if we disagree with why the badge was worn where it was, then lets agree to disagree. I simply dont see what esoteric benifit anyone would have by saying "lets wear ours 5cm lower/higher than the other guys!". I do believe that in the military orders are interprated by the people who recieve them and that the results are often not what was intended. I saw this enough when I was in the army and find it the most plausible explanation, you have a different theory, fine. The point of the forum is to discuss such theories.

I defend anyones right to counter any theory of mine with one of their own, anywhere, anytime.

best

Chrus

[Chris Boonzaier]

You just confirmed my deduction, that Rohr's men had special privileges to wear their badge in their own special position, because either they got it wrong and were then allowed to keep it wrong for the duration of the war (special privilege), or they were allowed to wear it in a different position from the beginning (special privilege).

So, we agree. Rohr's men had special privileges.

I go with the red. I do not see what would have been achieved by the latter. I would also wonder if anyone in SB Rohr other than the FW guys noticed the difference?

[Thomas W]

I go with the red. I do not see what would have been achieved by the latter. I would also wonder if anyone in SB Rohr other than the FW guys noticed the difference?

If you go with the red, then it means that the Rohr guys got special dispensation to wear their badges in the wrong place for the duration of the war. Doesn't seem plausible to me, but whatever. At any rate, you agree with me that they had special privileges, which is what I said in the first place.

We've already gone through why the two units would wear their badges in different places, so I'm not interested in explaining it alll over again. Like you said, let's agree to disagree. My original post was to Robin, anyway. I wasn't looking to have this same argument about the Rohr badges all over again.

I'm perfectly happy with my deduction. You reject it. Fine. Let's stop wasting time going over the same old ground over and over, okay?

[Chris Boonzaier]

If you go with the red, then it means that the Rohr guys got special dispensation to wear their badges in the wrong place for the duration of the war. Doesn't seem plausible to me, but whatever.

You are assuming Rohr cared one way or the other... or even noticed that other people were wearing it differently.

I am assuming he had more pressing problems.

best

Chris