Flammenwerfer! Flames, skulls and stuff

[Gilles]

Several of the men are wearing the silver Totenkopf pin

Thomas, you mean the thing they wear on the breast? Do you show it in your book?

Gilles

[Thomas W]

Thomas, you mean the thing they wear on the breast? Do you show it in your book?

Yes, former flamethrower pioneers wore the silver death's head pin mounted on a field-gray square. Unfortunately that is the only photo I've ever found of it. It appears in my first book, German Flamethrower Pioneers of World War I, but in a much smaller size. I had no control over the images as they appeared in my book. I wanted to publish a large closeup, like here, but the editor chose a larger view that showed more men.

The silver commemorative pin was very similar to this image:

Edited August 29, 2009 by Thomas W

[Thomas W]

And here is the Totenkopf taken from the death book of the flamethrower regiment, Dem Andenken unserer gefallenen Kameraden: Garde-Reserve-Pionier-Regiment (Flammenwerfer)(Berlin: Kameradschaft der Flammenwerfer im NS.-Reichskriegerbund,1931). As you can see it bears no resemblance to the official Prussiandeath's head worn by the men during the war.

[Sergeant 08]

The silver commemorative pin was very similar to this image:

Hamburg St.Pauli.

Edited August 29, 2009 by Sergeant 08

[Sergeant 08]

Indeed... but surely you are not implying that if it is odd, it may be real? ;-)

The photos of Thomas show us, it existed more than one standard pattern and a lot of different variances. I think all us us know, odd skull does not mean it may be real. On the other side it does not mean, it must be a fake.

Edited August 29, 2009 by Sergeant 08

[Robin Lumsden]

Indeed... but surely you are not implying that if it is odd, it may be real? ;-)

Indeed I am!

Whatever it is, I'm still pretty sure it's 'real'. And that isn't just 'wishful thinking'.

Whether it has anything to do with flamethrowers is, of course, another question entirely.

One thing is for sure, though. Not all flamethrower badges were made in a single 'official' pattern............as all the pictures posted in this thread clearly show.

The longer I make a study of TKs, (I've been at it for longer than I care to remember)the more 'odd' variants appear in contemporary photos.

Time will tell, no doubt.

[Robin Lumsden]

Here's an odd skull as an example. Fake?

Edited August 29, 2009 by Robin Lumsden

[Robin Lumsden]

No..........it's original. Certainly not regulation, but original.

[Robin Lumsden]

And who would think this thing was real............if it had been last week's 'dachbodenfund'. :whistle:

[Robin Lumsden]

And oddities can be found in the Weimar era, too.

The odd TK on the SS flag in the photo above bears an uncanny resemblance to the odd TK on the cuff badge worn by this Minenwerfer Sturmdetachment Heuschkel man..................

[Thomas W]

Freikorps Oberland with a Totenkopf on the sleeve. Haven't seen that before.

[Thomas W]

And who's this weirdo? Pilot? Armor crewman? Are those Austrian medals? It's a postwar image, I'm pretty sure.

[Sergeant 08]

And who's this weirdo? Pilot? Armor crewman? Are those Austrian medals? It's a postwar image, I'm pretty sure.

Another outstanding photo Thomas! Always a pleasure to see your photo treasures. Crazy guy on the photo! Is it a civil person? Stunt pilot?

Edited August 30, 2009 by Sergeant 08

[Sergeant 08]

Another theme related photo that was for sale during last weeks.

[Sergeant 08]

Detail

[Robin Lumsden]

More great pix!

The guy with the flying helmet is a classic.

[Chip]

Not an sleeve insignia, but has anyone seen this skull before? It is in form similar to a stickpin. The cap is marked inside, "St.B.XIV" for a unit marking and also has a Bekleidungs-Amt stamp of "B.A.XIII 1916". The cap was only lightly worn, so I am guessing the insignia is a postwar addition. The cap was brought back to the U.S. with this skull already on it.

Chip

[Thomas W]

Chip, the shape of your skull is similar to the postwar pin worn by former flamethrower pioneers. Thanks for posting it.

[Chip]

Thomas,

Thanks for the observation. Taking into account that the cap is a Württemberg one, there does not seem to be a connection to the Prussian Gd.Res.Pi.Rgt. The markings have always intrigued me.

Chip

[Thomas W]

Chip, it's interesting that after the war the veterans of the flamethrower regiment used a totally non-Prussian Totenkopf to identify themselves. I wonder why?

[Thomas W]

Hey, Robin:

Dark Totenkopfen!

http://cgi.ebay.de/Real-Photo-No-52-Stahlhelm-Pistole-Totenkopf-Trauerzug_W0QQitemZ220473565079QQcmdZViewItemQQptZMilitaria?hash=item33553f9f97&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14

Looks like Reichswehr uniforms in the background.

[Chris Boonzaier]

Not an sleeve insignia, but has anyone seen this skull before? It is in form similar to a stickpin. The cap is marked inside, "St.B.XIV" for a unit marking and also has a Bekleidungs-Amt stamp of "B.A.XIII 1916". The cap was only lightly worn, so I am guessing the insignia is a postwar addition. The cap was brought back to the U.S. with this skull already on it.

Chip

Hi,

I may be wrong (and my bavarian Jäger cap shows how out of the ordinary things can in fact be explained) but I think the XIII AK was in Flanders from the end of 1915. The St. B XIV however the whole war in the Vosges?

I am at work at the moment so I cannot check this, but it was my initial thought.

Best

Chris

[Chris Boonzaier]

Chip, it's interesting that after the war the veterans of the flamethrower regiment used a totally non-Prussian Totenkopf to identify themselves. I wonder why?

Hi,

I dont think chip is suggesting it is FW, maybe a SB using a skull?

[Thomas W]

I dont think chip is suggesting it is FW[.]

Oh, I know. I was just wondering why veterans of the Prussian flamethrower regiment would use a skull insignia that bore no resemblance whatsoever to the Prussian skull badge they were awarded by the Kaiser. It just seems odd. I would think they'd want their pin to look as close to the original badge as possible.

[bob lembke]

Not an sleeve insignia, but has anyone seen this skull before? It is in form similar to a stickpin. The cap is marked inside, "St.B.XIV" for a unit marking and also has a Bekleidungs-Amt stamp of "B.A.XIII 1916". The cap was only lightly worn, so I am guessing the insignia is a postwar addition. The cap was brought back to the U.S. with this skull already on it.

Chip

As I think Chris suggested, "St.B.XIV" may have very well been Sturm=Bataillon Nr. 14. As you know, formally, the numerals used for units were as follows; Kompagnie = Arabic, Bataillon = Roman, Regiment = Arabic, Brigade = Roman, Division = Arabic, Armeekorps = Roman, usw. So the Roman numeral is consistant with a battalion, and what other sort of battalion would it have been? Also don't think that "St.B.XIV" would be consistant with a brigade or army corps. Only a few Sturm Bataillone had their own Flammenwerfer detachments, aside from those temporarily borrowed from G=R=P=R (Flammenwerfer) , and I think (without digging) that the S=B Nr. 14 was not one of them, so I don't think that the Totenkopf on this cap has a valid FW wartime connection. Instantly after the war some Freikorps men and equipment started to display death heads, so there must have been some association of elite units and the Totenkopf, at least late in the war, although I don't have concrete info there, only the many Freikorps photos with Totenkoepfe displayed on equipment (helmets, tanks, usw.).

Bob Lembke