Order of the Wendish Crown

[rob65]

Hi everybody. I'm a new member of the forum and I'm asking you some help regarding the Mecklenburg House Order of the Wendish Crown.

As far as I know the differences between the decorations of the Mecklenburg grand duchies were the motto appearing around the crown on the obverse of the center medallion ("Per Aspera ad Astra" for Mecklenburg-Schwerin and "Avito Viret Honore" for Mecklenburg-Strelitz) and the grand ducal ciphers for the founders on the reverse of the center medallion ("FF" for Mecklenburg-Schwerin and "FW" for Mecklenburg-Strelitz).

In a recent militaria fair I came across an odd combination: a knight cross with obverse "Per Aspera ad Astra" and reverse with ciphers "FW". I've hold that piece (not bought yet). Could it be related in the last period of the war when Friedrich Franz IV of Mecklenburg-Schwerin was regent of Mecklenburg-Strelitz or there something wrong with it ?

Any comments welcome. Thanks in advance.

Edited June 7, 2009 by rob65

[Guest Rick Research]

"Could it be related in the last period of the war when Friedrich Franz IV of Mecklenburg-Schwerin was regent of Mecklenburg-Strelitz"

I'm afraid I cannot answer your question on the Wendish Crown, about which I know nothing. It does not match anything in Peter Ohm-Hieronymussen's definitive "Die Mecklenburg-Strelitzer Orden und Ehrenzeichen." He lists all the recipients of every grade of this Order and its Crosses-- and there were only 2 recipients of the Ritter class after Adolf's death in 1918.

What I can tell you, having transcribed the wartime Strelitz Cross for Distinction in War Rolls for publication this year or next is that the Strelitz Orders Chancery was ALREADY in utter chaos before their ruler's suicide-- and the extravagently inefficient (even demented) disorder processing Strelitz awards only got worse there afterwards. I cannot imagine that there was anyone who would have or could have taken a decision to create some new transitional form of award, when the existing ones were in such a mess.

Not for two recipients.

[seeheld]

Hello rob65,

I'm never saw a knight cross of the wendian crown like yours. As I know is this not an official arwarded one. It's looks like a foreign maker with a wrong back side. The comlete Item is different (Crown, Griffins...). But one thing is sure: Your Wendian Crown is never from the period of Feb 1918 until Nov 1918. At this time are no Crosses manufactured and no model change has done.

Best regards

Seeheld

[Steve K.]

The lack of details to the griffins and the cipher does not give me a good feeling, in addition to the mixed combination for the two duchies.

It does not compare favorably to my Wendish crown from Meck-Schwerin. I can post pics later if you like.

Regards,

Steve

[rob65]

Thank you all for your help and informations.

Steve, if you are so kind to post some pics, it will be very interesting to appreciate the differences you've noticed

Best Regards

[seeheld]

...if you are so kind to post some pics, it will be very interesting to appreciate the differences you've noticed

Here is one of my knight crosses.

Regards Seeheld

[seeheld]

And back side...

[Steve K.]

obverse

[Steve K.]

Reverse

[Wild Card]

Gentlemen,

Admittedly, I am not an expert on this order; but there is one minor point here that I would like to mention.

It strikes me that the crown on the piece in post #1 looks very, for lack of a better word, “Bavarian”; whereas

the crown on the pieces in posts #6 and 8 look to be what I expect on a Mecklenburg badge.

I will try to explain. A Bavarian crown arches slightly upwards along the top line. The Mecklenburg crown should

be flat or even slightly depressed (“u” shaped) along the top line. This may be attributable to jeweler's styles or

any number of other things - I could be completely wrong.

Does anyone else have any opinions on this point?

Regards,

Wild Card

[seeheld]

Wild Card,

you are right. The crown looks really bavarian. And in Bavaria was no official maker situated. The quality is also on a lower level...

Best regards

Seeheld

[Wild Card]

Wild Card,

you are right. The crown looks really bavarian. And in Bavaria was no official maker situated. The quality is also on a lower level...

Best regards

Seeheld

:beer:

[eurorders]

Hi, I recently acquired this cased version of the Mecklenburg Schwerin Order of the Wendish/Wendian Crown. Which is more used - Wendish or Wendian? A Grand Commander set with original ribbon. (thick watered silk ribbon/cordon is very faded on the other side which is another nice sign of vintage age). Interesting that the Griffins are silver, but the bale is gold and the cross arms are gold and the ornate suspension is gold. Its intricate features are hand tooled in the old European style. Back of breast star says Godet in Berlin but the case has on the upper silk the imprint of H. Rose (Schwerin) . Everything fits very very well in the old fitted case. Monogram on top. Griffins very refined and detailed. Decade of manufacture??  The crown might be the ore material mentioned in either Borna Borac's books or Nimmergut book. I do not own the book, Die Mecklenburg-Strelitzer Orden und Ehrenzeichen so I would be interested what is in it about this medal set. I wonder how many were awarded or allowed to be at a given time by the registry.

[eurorders]

PS Cross arms are 66 MM wide. Weighs 1.53 troy oz. or 47.7 grams. The population of the grand duchy was 640,000 when this medal was made and awarded.

[seeheld]

Nice set!

I'm sure, the griffins are not made by Silver. Only the Gold grade is lower as the rest of the Order.

Regards Seeheld

 

[seeheld]

Eurorders

please be so kind and provide us better pictures.

Regards

Seeheld

 

[eurorders]

Happy to oblige. It took a little while because I had it in the vault. I had to downsize the photos greatly as they were each 5MB and I had to ask for help downsizing them electronically first. As I look at the griffins, they now look to my eye to be gold rather than silver, but I have a red-green color deficiency in my eyes. However, the gold looks to be of a different amalgam than the suspension ring or the connector at the top of the cross arms. when I turn the cross sideways, I see a more vibrant yellow gold like the suspension ring. 

[seeheld]

Thank you for sharing.

This is a very nice set! I love it!

I guess the box is labeled with H. Rose?

The neck cross is a late piece. 

Can you make pictures of the Box label and the Godet label on breast stars backside?

Thank you!

Regards Seeheld

[eurorders]

Hi, work has kept me semi busy, but I wanted to attend to your questions of recent. Although I've returned the set to its bank vault, I do have some answers. Yes, The Rose name is in the silk in the upper inside of the case. In regard to the Godet label, it looks to my memory just like the logo pictured in the mid section illustration of Jeffrey Jacob's book "Court Jewelers of the World." For that matter, I wish I could talk with Mr. Jacob and commend him on his 1978 work. Gene Springer wrote the Foreword and Jerome Platt was the editor.

I am thinking the order was likely made between about 1911 and 1914, but that is my own guestimate.

I did speak with an authority on German orders and he told me that, after seeing the photos, (abridged) "As I can see, parts of the decoration have the typical gold-patina of old gold, as it occurs, as you said, from the slightly different alloy of the parts. This patina also is often to be seen in the centres of Prussian Orders of the Crown centres. This patina is a sign for originality, you absolutely should not “clean” it!

 Generally spoken: The bright colour of the cross itself may occur by higher fineness of gold, as these crosses were made hollow with thin gold-tin struck and put together. To work them out the gold had to be weaker and therefore of higher fineness. The Griffins, made massive, were made of lower fine gold, in order not to make them too heavy (and also to save gold) and that’s the reason for the gold patina. And the crown was made of lower fine gold for structural reasons, as your colleague said. Also suspension and ribbon rings often are of a lower fineness of gold, in order to make them harder, in order that they don’t break. The ring doesn’t show the gold patina, as it was “cleaned” by wear with the silk ribbon. Such lower gold parts often have been galvanically gilt with pure gold again, in order that the slightly different colours are not be seen.

 The pictures are exactly demonstrating the constructing and working out of the pieces."

[eurorders]

This was a nice addition to go alongside the other set...a dual piece imperial medal bar.

David 

[Great Dane]

Beautiful 

I wonder why the order was mounted with the reverse showing?

[eurorders]

good point. However, I have seen this with other medal bars. On occasion. I did check the backing and it is original, along with a couple of moth holes in the backing wool and a vintage clasp pin. Also the ribbon is worn at the top as would show wear now and then over a century, so I feel fine with it. I posted a few other medal bars I acquired about the same time in another log on this network. 

[seeheld]

Nice bar (also for my own collection), but I guess you should show us the back side.

Regards Seeheld

 

[eurorders]

Hi, Seeheld. I was wondering if you were saying if you already had one of these pictured medals or bars specifically yourself too? I was not clear. I am happy to provide photos of the reverse side, enclosed. Merry Christmas. 

[seeheld]

Hi Eurorders,

nice bar. I love it!

I guess you have missunderstood me. The meaning of my post was: I wish to have your bar in my collection. Sorry, but my english is very weak.

And yes, both medals I have already on several medalbars in my collection, but like yours.

Thank you for sharing with us.

If you ones in your life want to sell that bar, please be so kind and let me know.

Regards Seeheld