Kriegsmarine Aux. Cruiser by Juncker

[dan734]

Gentllmen! What do you think this inscribed number (0365) on the reverse of the badge mean? Best Regards!

[Gordon Williamson]

It is the personal Stammrollnummer of the sailor. O-365. The O is for Ostsee (Batic).

All naval Stammrollnummer will have either an "N" for Nordsee or "O" for Ostsee before the numerals.

[dan734]

Thank you for your reply . Is it possible to learn the name of the ship, from which was the sailor?

[dan734]

The badge is mine now . I'd like to post more detailed photos. For me it is a wonderful example ("been there")

[dan734]

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[dan734]

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[dan734]

It is the personal Stammrollnummer of the sailor. O-365. The O is for Ostsee (Batic).

All naval Stammrollnummer will have either an "N" for Nordsee or "O" for Ostsee before the numerals.

Respected Gordon! I've been searching any possible clues to find out from which ship was the sailor, but found nothing. I have also such theory: What if "O" is for Orion; 36- Orion in German navy was ship№36. I don't know what to do with the 5, but may be this ship was from the 5th fleet? What do you think, can such theory be true?

[Gordon Williamson]

Sorry Dan, but I think that is very unlikely. I would be 99% certain that it is the Stammrollnummer. I have had several KM badges over the years with such numbers added.

[Guest Darrell]

That's an interesting pin on the reverse of that badge. The majority of collectors agree these are attributed to Juncker, that pin is shaped more like you would find on a Paul Meybauer ....

[dan734]

That's an interesting pin on the reverse of that badge. The majority of collectors agree these are attributed to Juncker, that pin is shaped more like you would find on a Paul Meybauer ....

Hi Darrell! I think it's because the pin was deformed by wearing. Here is a little better photo. Unfortunately the badge is not in my hands now, but next week I'll be home and make closer pics of the pin.

[Guest Darrell]

Hi Darrell! I think it's because the pin was deformed by wearing. Here is a little better photo. Unfortunately the badge is not in my hands now, but next week I'll be home and make closer pics of the pin.

Could be. just a slight resemblance that's all.

[John R]

Could be. just a slight resemblance that's all.

I believe that the number, in this case 0365, means the 365th sailor assigned to a particular unit or vessel. Which means you will not be able to discover the ship since each unit or vessel had their own stammrollen numbers. I do not think the O means anything in this case, just a digit. Take a look at the reverse of my destroyer example. I believe this is the same situation, he was the 325th person to be assigned to this destroyer. It does not mean the ship had 325 men or 675 men, it just means, I think, the 325th sailor assigned in chronological order of reporting aboard. This is not the same number as a permanent enlistment number so if this sailor went to another unit, he would get another number for the rolls of that ship.

A series of numbers were assigned to personnel but the stammrollen number, as I understand it, was a permanent record of every man assigned to a unit for that unit's history and was distinct from a permanent identification number that honestly I have a hard time finding in personnel documents, but there must have been one.

John

Edited September 23, 2009 by John Robinson

[dan734]

Hi John! Thanks for your opinion. Very interesting theory. But in this case "O" can mean Orion - it was the only aux.cruiser which name started from letter O. Maybe...... I am quite sure in two things:1) "O" is a letter O but not a digit 0. 2) It means something. By the way the way, in which O365 was engraveg routher interesting- it looks not like" rough, hand-made, on board the ship, with nail or needle", but more like it was done in some workshop. Best regards.

[John R]

Hi John! Thanks for your opinion. Very interesting theory. But in this case "O" can mean Orion - it was the only aux.cruiser which name started from letter O. Maybe...... I am quite sure in two things:1) "O" is a letter O but not a digit 0. 2) It means something. By the way the way, in which O365 was engraveg routher interesting- it looks not like" rough, hand-made, on board the ship, with nail or needle", but more like it was done in some workshop. Best regards.

Dan,

The Kriegsmarine did not refer to their HSK vessels by their nominal name--in this case Orion. Orion was HSK 1 or Schiff 36 or Raider A--not Orion. So, it makes no sense to lable a badge that would link that badge or its wearer to any ship or unit. The destroyers were not prefixed with anything as I have shown.

You have a good Juncker badge, it is very interesting due to the number, but I would not read too much more into it than that.

All that said, as I have tried to make clear above, my opinion of what the numbers stand for is just that, my opinion and as far as I know, Gordon might be right when he sees a letter in front of a series of numbers. That does not explain though the more common incidence, I think, of numbers without letters and this applies across service lines, like Heer and LW.

John

Edited September 25, 2009 by John Robinson

[John R]

The attached image show the enlistment number that stayed with the sailor. The first letter, in this case an "O" means Navy Station Baltic (Ost=O), the following numbers represent which sailor in order joined in numerical order. The last letter, in this case a T, stands for Technical Rating and the numbers at the bottom the year enlisted. The other last letter on the first line could by a "S" which mean deck.

So the 1198th sailor joined in 1936, technical speciality, Navy Station Baltic. I have blocked out his name which is below.

So with your badge, it is either "O" for Ost or it is a zero just put in front of the stammrollen number.

John

Edited September 25, 2009 by John Robinson

[dan734]

Thanks for explanation. So I think that unfortunately the only thing we can be sure 100% about this number is that it would not provide us with any information about the ship from which was the sailor. As for me I think that O is the ostsee but not the digit, because IMO engraving 0 before 365 adds no sense. Thanks again for your opinions !

Best regards.

[nesredep]

Hello!

Very interesting information.

All the best

Nesredep.

[John R]

Now here is a badge sold by Detlev yesterday and it has the enlistment serial number hand stamped into the reverse vice the stammrollen number.

Looks like he was the 23rd sailor enlisted (deck) in 1936 from "O" Navy Station Baltic (Ost=O)

John

Edited October 17, 2009 by John R

[dan734]

Now here is a badge sold by Detlev yesterday and it has the enlistment serial number hand stamped into the reverse vice the stammrollen number.

Looks like he was the 23rd sailor enlisted (deck) in 1936 from "O" Navy Station Baltic (Ost=O)

John

And what does the letter "S" mean here? Interesting, this letter is engraved in different way from the number.

[John R]

And what does the letter "S" mean here? Interesting, this letter is engraved in different way from the number.

The "S" means deck. The engraving just reflects he had a sent of numbers to hit into the reverse of the badge where the "S" and other parts similar where "punched" into the reverse with a punch set and hammer IMO. John

[Martin W]

The numbers and letters on the back of John's Destroyer badge are what i am more familiar with seeing on the reverse of KM awards.

I have two similarly marked badges.

One is an early tombak Schwerin Destroyer marked,"N1060/34T".

The other is a Juncker AC badge named and nubered to "Alf Grzywotz N1733/39".

Grzywotz served on the Atlantis.

So in both cases,"N" is for Nordsea,34 and 39 are the years they joined the Kriegsmarine.They were enlisted 1060 and 1733 in those years.

The "T" on the Destroyer badge denotes rank,i think.

I would appreciate any additional information on these service numbers,if i am wrong.

Regards,Martin.

[John R]

Martin,

The "T" denotes technical rating.

In English usage rate=rank and rating=specialty.

John

Edited October 18, 2009 by John R

[Martin W]

John,

thanks and i apologise.I completetly missed your explanation of the letter "T" in post #15.

Do you know if any more letters besides "S" or "T" could be found on the end of the service numbers?

Cheers,Martin.

[John R]

It is the personal Stammrollnummer of the sailor. O-365. The O is for Ostsee (Batic).

All naval Stammrollnummer will have either an "N" for Nordsee or "O" for Ostsee before the numerals.

Upon further research, I think Gordon is right and it is the personal stammrollen number for a sailor. It seems only in the Heer, LW and SS did the unit have their own roster numbers in addition to the original enlistment number--actually they had several numbers assigned including cadre and unit numbers; the KM used the single stammrollen number. Best as I know anyway.

John

[dan734]

Upon further research, I think Gordon is right and it is the personal stammrollen number for a sailor. It seems only in the Heer, LW and SS did the unit have their own roster numbers in addition to the original enlistment number--actually they had several numbers assigned including cadre and unit numbers; the KM used the single stammrollen number. Best as I know anyway.

John

Hi John! That gives a small chance that someday I'd finally discover to who the badge belonged