Identification of Medalbar - owner/wearer

[Guest Rick Research]

"Take away the Centenar medal and everything would be okay. The person joined the Bavarian Army in lets say 1900. In 1914 he was a NCO received the Austria medal in 1915 and was promoted in 1915/16 to Officer and as such legible for the MVO 4 KL. and gets killed or survives - however in 1918 it is all over and therefore the rest of the Medalbar setup is correct right ?"

NO.

Please re-read all the previous posts already made here which detail ALL the reasons why NONE of this combination makes sense for a REAL person.

Heiko needs no introduction to people as an expert on German colonial awards.

I have devoted more than 30 years of my life to researching Imperial German officers. Rules, regulations, and the actual PEOPLE... I see in my dreams at night having been doing this for so long. Please see the list of our personal reference libraries as some indication of our depth of knowledge:

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=688&st=0&p=3732&#entry3732

You need to get as many of those reference books as possible and spend many years studying or...

take it from the Old Folks who have already DONE all of that and are here at GMIC.

We have explained ALL the things which are wrong with this bar.

[Ulan]

Ulan, you are a hard rock....

Talking only about the Centenarmedaille ..............

OF COURSE COULD A BAVARIAN WHO FOUGHT DURING THE 70/71 WAR WEAR A CENTENARMEDAILLE BECAUSE IN THIS CASE HE WAS A VETERAN OF THIS WAR AND GOT THE MEDAL IN 1897 AS I SAID BEFORE ----- EVERY VETERAN OF THE FORMER WARS GOT ONE !!!

But when a bavarian was a active soldier in the bavarian army in 1897 he would NOT get a Centenarmedaille because he was no prussian at this time , ok ?

Hello HeikoGrusdat,

You know as a German we take things "very" exact

I wasn't aware about your statements conjunction in regards to: BUT NOT TO BAVARIAN SOLDIERS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Could you please still update me on your statement: Kriegsverdienstmedaille awarded to non Prussian troops, There HAS TO BE a MEZ2 (Militärehrenzeichen)

Regards

Ulan

[HeikoGrusdat]

next............. the Kriegerverdienstmedaille!!!

It is N°4 on your bar.... and it is a small medal as you can see - this small medal in this size was given only to foreigners - we said this some times now... they were given for austrians in ww1 for exemple , natives in the colonies got these "half-sized" things.....

Again : THE BAVARIANS IN CHINA WERE NOT FIGHTING THERE AS BAVARIANS BUT AS GERMANS !!!!!!!!! THE SAXONS WERE NO SAXONS BUT GERMANS !!! THE WÜRTTEMBERGERS WERE NO WÜRTTEMBERGERS BUT GERMANS !!! THE BADENER WERE NO BADENERS BUT GERMANS !!!! NOONE FOUGHT IN CHINA IN BAVARIAN OR SAXON UNIFORMS --- NO ONE !!! They were all imperial german soldiers with the uniforms of the Seebataillon , the Ostasiatische Regimenter , the Expeditionskorps.......... they got special tropical uniforms , different for winter and summer , special hats , tschakos and tropical helmets - I collect these things for some days now and I have a lot of picture material I can show you if you want - BUT I HAVE NEVER SEEN A BAVARIAN IN A BAVARIAN UNIFORM IN CHINA !!!!

So they were no foreigners and did not get the Kriegerverdienstmedaille !!! NEVER !!!

They got the MEZ 2 - Militärehrenzeichen 2.Klasse as all other troops there too !!!

Same thing happened some years later in Afrika - Deutsch-Südwestafrika !!! They were all imperial troops , not bavarians or saxons or badeners or whatever.... AND AGAIN THEY GOT THE MEZ2 and not the Kriegerverdienstmedaille !!!! Here you can see a BAVARIAN NATIVE known by name , birth place and all other things with his medals - photo is taken still in Africa

He wears FIRST the MEZ 2 !!!!!!!!!!!!! Can you see the different size to your Kriegerverdienstmedaille ? Much bigger ok.... then he has his bavarian native homestate award - the MVK of the MVO of Bavaria !!! and then the DSWA campaign medal....

HE WAS NO BAVARIAN WHILE HE WAS FIGHTING FOR GERMANY - OK ???

[Ulan]

"Take away the Centenar medal and everything would be okay. The person joined the Bavarian Army in lets say 1900. In 1914 he was a NCO received the Austria medal in 1915 and was promoted in 1915/16 to Officer and as such legible for the MVO 4 KL. and gets killed or survives - however in 1918 it is all over and therefore the rest of the Medalbar setup is correct right ?"

NO.

Please re-read all the previous posts already made here which detail ALL the reasons why NONE of this combination makes sense for a REAL person.

Heiko needs no introduction to people as an expert on German colonial awards.

I have devoted more than 30 years of my life to researching Imperial German officers. Rules, regulations, and the actual PEOPLE... I see in my dreams at night having been doing this for so long. Please see the list of our personal reference libraries as some indication of our depth of knowledge:

http://gmic.co.uk/in...3732&#entry3732

You need to get as many of those reference books as possible and spend many years studying or...

take it from the Old Folks who have already DONE all of that and are here at GMIC.

We have explained ALL the things which are wrong with this bar.

Hello Rick Research,

easy, easy - no one, and also not me is disregarding or questioning your in depth knowledge. That is why I forwarded this post of mine in this Forum and was very happy to receive a reply that shows a deep insight in this issue.

I am a collector myself for 30 years, but I am certainly no expert on medals.

Therefore I read your post and analysis with great interest and I am now forwarding certain questions so as to get a clearer picture out of your information. for myself - thats all.

Regards

Ulan

[Ulan]

next............. the Kriegerverdienstmedaille!!!

It is N°4 on your bar.... and it is a small medal as you can see - this small medal in this size was given only to foreigners - we said this some times now... they were given for austrians in ww1 for exemple , natives in the colonies got these "half-sized" things.....

Again : THE BAVARIANS IN CHINA WERE NOT FIGHTING THERE AS BAVARIANS BUT AS GERMANS !!!!!!!!! THE SAXONS WERE NO SAXONS BUT GERMANS !!! THE WÜRTTEMBERGERS WERE NO WÜRTTEMBERGERS BUT GERMANS !!! THE BADENER WERE NO BADENERS BUT GERMANS !!!! NOONE FOUGHT IN CHINA IN BAVARIAN OR SAXON UNIFORMS --- NO ONE !!! They were all imperial german soldiers with the uniforms of the Seebataillon , the Ostasiatische Regimenter , the Expeditionskorps.......... they got special tropical uniforms , different for winter and summer , special hats , tschakos and tropical helmets - I collect these things for some days now and I have a lot of picture material I can show you if you want - BUT I HAVE NEVER SEEN A BAVARIAN IN A BAVARIAN UNIFORM IN CHINA !!!!

So they were no foreigners and did not get the Kriegerverdienstmedaille !!! NEVER !!!

They got the MEZ 2 - Militärehrenzeichen 2.Klasse as all other troops there too !!!

Same thing happened some years later in Afrika - Deutsch-Südwestafrika !!! They were all imperial troops , not bavarians or saxons or badeners or whatever.... AND AGAIN THEY GOT THE MEZ2 and not the Kriegerverdienstmedaille !!!! Here you can see a BAVARIAN NATIVE known by name , birth place and all other things with his medals - photo is taken still in Africa

He wears FIRST the MEZ 2 !!!!!!!!!!!!! Can you see the different size to your Kriegerverdienstmedaille ? Much bigger ok.... then he has his bavarian native homestate award - the MVK of the MVO of Bavaria !!! and then the DSWA campaign medal....

HE WAS NO BAVARIAN WHILE HE WAS FIGHTING FOR GERMANY - OK ???

Hello HeikoGrusdat,

thanks for your answer - I get your meaning now to the "foreigner" part in regards to the Kriegsverdienstmedaille/Militärehrenzeichen.

BUT I HAVE NEVER SEEN A BAVARIAN IN A BAVARIAN UNIFORM IN CHINA!!

Well neither have I.

Maybe Osprey is wrong - this and in some other publications I saw that the Bavarians for example serving in China, retained their national Kokarde on the Suedwester Hat.

This is what makes me think that a Bavarian serving in the Imperial German Army was still listed as a Bavarian.

Regards

Ulan

Edited September 3, 2009 by Ulan

[saschaw]

What the h... you had to deal with Horst Schlämmer

No, Mr. Steinmeier had a campaign appearance.

that cannot fit.... no way...... why should bavarians get Kriegerverdienstmedaillen for china????

Noone said this. Re-read my postinmg, and then, PLEASE get an Hessenthal und Schreiber, and READ it. The bar might be crap (and I didn't buy it, in the end), but the issue with the Kriegerverdienstmedaille is NONE. Ulan is in this pretty right, while some experts are NOT and scream around here. Sad to see something like this on GMIC.

[HeikoGrusdat]

China medal in bronze with PrKrVM on black/white ribbon is fine, on a Bavarian's bar

Hi Sascha,

peace please...

Maybe I misinterpreted this sentence of you.....

Could you please explain what the Hessenthal und Schreiber says about that... I don`t have one. Maybe we have a big misunderstanding , but in my eyes the point was : can this bar be real in this combination / or why not.... When I go out from this point I must think that the Kriegerverdienstmedaille on the bar is for china - or not? And that was the point - got a bavarian in china MEZ or KrVm ??? And my opinion on that point is clear , founded on everything I have seen and heard during my (imperial collecting) life - of course I am the first one to say "sorry" if I should be wrong...

greetings

Heiko

[Guest Rick Research]

MEZ2. MEZ1. PrGMVK. States handed out what they had for their own citizens, but Prussian awards for China and SW Africa to fellow Germans were REICHS awards only. No KVMs to Germans for colonial action 1900+.

Anyone with the Prussian Ordenslisten (and I have cited the numbers above from Eric Ludvigsen's statistical survey) can confirm that.

Prussia = Reichs for the colonies, which is how my under-decorated Bavarian (MVK2X M1905 and NO Reichs award for SW Africa) ended up with the "Prussian" XV for his Schutztruppen DtSW service. He was NOT a "Bavarian" (though really he was and Bavaria gave him something even when Prussia/German Empire didn't) while in the Schutztruppe-- he was a "German"--

No Bavarian Luitpold Jubilee Medal 1905 because he was "Reichs" in Africa. No 1897 Medal because he was not in any Bavarian unit in XVth Army Corps or whose "Chef" was the Kaiser in that year. Retired before the World War and called back up out of the civil service as a Feldwebelleutnant to receive the M1913 BMVK1X and NOT a BMV4X.

No one in the Kaiserliche Marine received a KVM because they were REICHS military.

I have seen German medal bars for 30+ years and never seen any German's colonial KVM, only MEZs.

To quote von Hessenthal und Schreiber, Ausgabe 1940 Seiten 367-368--

" Am 1. Dezember 1888 traf Kaiser Wilhelm Ii. die Bestimmung (vgl. Rote Adlermedaille u. Kronenorden-Medaille), daß die Krieger-Verdienst-Medaille .nur an Mannschaften nichtpreußischer Truppenteile von Feldwebel abwärts, und zwar a) an solche von Truppen, welche unlängst an einem Feldzug teilgenommen haben, am schwarz-weißen, b0 wo das nicht der Fall ist, am weiß-schwarzen Bande verliehen' werde. Auch an einzelne preußische Staatsangehörige (Unterförster usw) ist sie verausgabt worden, doch wurde hierbei die Norm festgehalten, daß diese bereits die Kronenorden-Medaille besitzen mußten. Seit dem Erwerb von Kolonien, und zwar schon zu Wißmanns Zeit, werde die Krieger-Verdienst-Medaille dann auch an farbige Soldaten in den afrikanischen Kolonien (siehe Kriegerverdienstmedaille 1. Klasse in Gold u. diesselbe in Silber Nr. 394 u 395ff 1892-191X) als Auszeichnung für Tapferkeit vor dem Feinde am schwarz-weißen Bande verliehen."

"Nichtpreußischer Truppenteile" did NOT refer to the Schutztruppen or naval personnel engaged in colonial actions.

[saschaw]

Thanks Rick for quoting HuS, I was too tired yesterday. =)

Maybe I misinterpreted this sentence of you.....

Yes, seems so, or it was me who mis-articulatet the sentence, as Rick misunderstood it as well?!

"Nichtpreußischer Truppenteile" did NOT refer to the Schutztruppen or naval personnel engaged in colonial actions.

"China medal in bronze with PrKrVM on black/white ribbon is fine, on a Bavarian's bar"

I did not claim - or at least did not want to claim - that any German soldier got a KrVM for any colonial campaign! Your English's better than mine, did I claim this by mistake? If so, my apologize for this.

I wanted to say, and hope we can agree at least in this point: A Bavarian soldier who fought in the colonies might have gotten a Prussian (not Reichs!) Kriegerverdienstmedaille... afterwards! And then, according to Wilhelm II.'s 1888 decree, to be worn on black and white ribbon, while any other non-Prussian EM/NCO would have worn it on white and black ribbon. However, either would be a peace time award...

Peace and agreement? :cheeky:

[HeikoGrusdat]

Peace , of course peace !!!

I think these things are quite normal when people of different countries with different mother languages try to communicate in ONE global language - of course everybody has different skills in this language or different ways to say things.... so maybe we should meet for a beer or two and talk a bit in our mother language..... .... but wait, I don`t speak this Baden slang... :P

[Ulan]

Correction/objection!!

One has to differentiate between "Colonial troops" such as those who served in e.g. DSWA and those German troops that were send to China during the Boxer rebellion.

.Colonies were a Reichs issue and not relegated to the states belonging to the Kaiserreich, e.g. Bavaria. Those colonial units were pure Prussian units or Prussian units composing of citizens from different states.

As such a Bavarian servicemen-volunteering for serving in the Schutztruppen (Reichs/Prussian-units) would automatically be delisted from the Bavarian rank lists.

Therefore no way for this "former" Bavarian to receive a KrVM.

Now China was a different issue since units from other states such as from Bavaria volunteered, not to serve as Schutztruppen but only for this particular mission – or were even commandeered by the Bavarian army to join the German Asia Brigade.

As such they were not delisted from the Bavarian rank list and were legible to receive a KrVM being non-Prussian troops.

One of my own ancestors from Bavaria served in China as a BAVARIAN and never as a Prussian.

Please refer to 4. and 6. Ostasiatisches Infanterie Regiment and its national composition

http://www.boxeraufstand.com/

HeikoDruskat,

In regards to the Erinnerungsmedaille:

according to the Bavarian Army hand book from 1907 that I have, the following is mentioned in regards to medals being worn as "Denkzeichen" by Bavarians.

f) Die Erinnerungsmedaille. Gestiftet zum Andenken an Kaiser Wilhelm den Grossen bei der Feier Seines 100 jaehrigen Geburtstages am 22.3.1897

It is therefore (the way I read it) a medal, awarded in regards to the Kaiser W.I. birthday and is not only in conjunction to having served in the 1870/71 war or even being an active service men in 1897.

Whereas even the active service men is not restricted to the Prussian army but to the Deutsche Heer – which includes the non Prussian states.

Another interesting example: For a non Prussian, and he wasn't even active, when he received the Erinnerungsmedaille in 1899.

Karl Joseph Wilhelm Florestan Gero Crescentius Fürst von Urach Graf von Württemberg wurde am 15. Februar 1865 in Ulm als jüngerer Sohn des Wilhelm (I.) Herzog von Urach und der Florestine Herzogin von Urach geb. Prinzessin von Monaco geboren.

https://www2.landesa...hp?bestand=5087

In regards to the MVO only being awarded to officers:

Artikel I.

Dieser Orden soll den Namen: "Militär-Verdienstorden" erhalten.

Artikel II.

Derselbe wird zunächst für tapfere Kriegstaten verliehen, und kann von allen dem vaterländischen Heere Angehörigen erworben werden. Auch findet die Verleihung an Angehörige anderer Armeen statt, und sind von derselben Zivilpersonen, welche sich besonders und auf hervorragende Weise für die Armee verdient gemacht haben, nicht ausgeschlossen.

There is no order from the Bavarian King or government that I came across that would state that the MVO was only to be awarded to officers. Maybe you could if available provide me with such a publication.

Due to everyone being legible, the Offizier Kreuz was introduced IIRC in 1905.

Regards

Ulan

Edited September 5, 2009 by Ulan

[Claudio]

Dear Ulan,

I am quite impressed about the way you're trying to defend your newly acquired medal bar. It is incredible to see how much can be discussed about such a clearly recently put together bar. Bottom line is when a bar is good, not much has to be added or questioned... Usually you get just a couple of comments like; great bar, congrats, I wish I had in my collection, etc. I really do pay a lot of attention to what some of very knowledgable members of this forum want to share... that means a lot to me.

However I must say that it never crossed my mind to purchase this bar on Ebay when I first saw it. There are many things that don't really make sense on this medal bar for the reasons explained by my fellow forum's members and collecting friends, but mostly is my guts feeling. I have been collecting since 25 years and I would never trade a single medal bar in my collection (I do own a couple of them... ) with this one you're showing here. That's it... I said it.

Don't feel offended by my comment; If you are happy... I am happy for you! Good luck with it.

Ciao,

Claudio

P.S.: I am enclosing a "Colonial" medal bar of a known Bavarian officer, just for comparison...

Edited September 5, 2009 by Claudio

[HeikoGrusdat]

Hi Claudio... nice bar !!!

Hi Ulan,

I really don`t know what to say anymore..... you are not believing in what we said about the Kriegerverdienstmedaille , you are not believing in what we said about the Centenarmedaille and now you are doubting that the MVO is a officers only award - OK , you are right , we are wrong .... I am out , live long and prosper...

best regards

Heiko

[Guest Rick Research]

Kameraden-- dies's Pferd ist nicht nur ja schon im Leimtiegel sonder UNS'RE Beine müßt'n doch übel mitgespielt'n wurd'n. Anders ka' nicht seien. :whistle:

[HeikoGrusdat]

:beer:

[Ulan]

Hello Claudio,

Thanks for your interest:

However you seem to interpret far too much into this Medal bar issue.

Firstly, even though I bought this medal bar I had my doubts but as I mentioned earlier on the money paid would be about the same as the individual medals put together.

I communicated with the seller, he is taking it back, he wants to check on it for his own interest the money has been refunded to me great gentleman.

Imagine he would have argued like others here voicing opinions, and telling me for how many decades he has been trading medals. Money gone!

Secondly I am not defending this Medal bar why should I? What I am doing is questioning certain opinions forwarded by members in this forum, who have voiced out their opinions without ever forwarding a source!! Not in regards to an incorrect medal bar but to the individual statements done on behalf of the respective individual medals,

I on the contra have backed my statements with sources and the only reply I get is opinions and a high nose attitude!! Especially the last three posts great and fantastic contributions, displaying immense knowledge.

Where is the written historical proof that a non-Prussian was not entitled to a Centenar Medal even if not having participated in the 1870/71 war?

I have provided proof that a non Prussian who wasn't even active at the time and never served in the 1870/71 war received a Centenar medal.

There also seems to be incapability to understand and have knowledge about the differences and military statutes of nationals of the Deutsche Reich who served in their respective national military, in colonial troops (for Prussia) and a non Prussian participant of the Asia Brigade in 1900/01.

In regards to your medal bar; why should or how can a colonial soldier wear a China ribbon with a colonial medal attached? A colonial medal is one thing and a China medal another. A quite highly decorated soldier displaying a 1914 Kriegsverdienst Kreuz? (I am not saying that he couldn't). And a MVO 4 Kl., in front of a pre war officer Ritter Kreuz MVO II Kl.?

Sorry for placing all these tiring, dead horse and abrasive question marks. I am not placing my questions as a final verdict or statement - They are QUESTIONS.

Claudio, I don't take opinions as a proof I read them and will check on them and then I will come up with a source to disclaim or approve of this opinion. That's it and this is the kind of forum I am looking for I don't need people to just voice personal opinions backed by; I have been collecting and researching for …… years, upon my questions.

So have David Irving and many others too!!

If I am regarded as a "new-bee" or "low live" in this "Gentleman"-Forum, so as not to receive appropriate backed up statements well ……..

Regards

Ulan

Edited September 6, 2009 by Ulan

[saschaw]

Claudio, great bar!

No problems with a ~1901 knight's cross 2nd class with swords and a WW1 4th class with crown and swords, as the latter is actually a higher award. Awarded for different wars, they had to be worn together while two MVOs for one war should not be worn together. And, the MVO was for officers and comparable civilians only. NCOs and EMs got the cross of the order. No proof handy, but you can believe this.

you are not believing in what we said about the Kriegerverdienstmedaille

Correct! Why should he believe what isn't true? A Bavarian who was in China or GSWA can wear a Kriegerverdienstmedaille on black/white ribbon. Where's the problem? Rick even postet HuS' comment on this.

you are not believing in what we said about the Centenarmedaille

Correct! As it was not correct what you, Heiko, posted. Rick did explain it very well. Bavarians (that did not fight in 1870/71) could get it, under certain circumstances.

I really don`t know what to say anymore.....

Dito.

We can agree on the bar's most lkely crap. I never claimed to be sure it were good. Ulan finally did not buy it, neither did I. Still, some things have been written here that are not correct. And this must be said to prevent babel.

[Purple21]

Take away the Centenar medal and everything would be okay. The person joined the Bavarian Army in lets say 1900. In 1914 he was a NCO received the Austria medal in 1915 and was promoted in 1915/16 to Officer and as such legible for the MVO 4 KL. and gets killed or survives - however in 1918 it is all over and therefore the rest of the Medalbar setup is correct right ?

Regards

Purple

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dossier surendettement