seeheld Posted September 4, 2009 Share Posted September 4, 2009 Dear Gents, I got this medalbar from ebay some months ago. According to the seller it's came direct from the family. The seller told me the name Oberleutnant Franz Buchholz. It's will make me very happy if somebody can confirm this name. Because Papers are not available. Thank you in advance Regards Seeheld Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rick Research Posted September 4, 2009 Share Posted September 4, 2009 Hmmm, I do not find that name on what we have at the moment. Is the Schwarzburg SEK3X enamelled on the reverse center or not? Without the Schwarzburg Rolls.... That is a late war BMV4X and I suspect we won't find him until Bernd's Non-Bavarians WW1 Roll is ready. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seeheld Posted September 4, 2009 Author Share Posted September 4, 2009 Hi Rick, yes the SEK3X is from Sondershausen (enamelled on the reverse centre). But thank you for your help. regards Seeheld Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeikoGrusdat Posted September 4, 2009 Share Posted September 4, 2009 ...... no Buchholz with CO4 in active service in 1914 rank list... by the way : great bar !!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Steele Posted September 5, 2009 Share Posted September 5, 2009 I am very new to the medal bar game but gee I do like that one...nice pickup :love: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rick Research Posted September 5, 2009 Share Posted September 5, 2009 What color is the cloth backing? I wonder (I do) if it might be NAVY-- that KO4, the Silesian Eagle, Hamburg, no long service award.... navy or a wartime staff Hauptmann who went out as a char. Major aD without time in for an XXV. Backing color MIGHT be a good clue.... :catjava: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saschaw Posted September 5, 2009 Share Posted September 5, 2009 This bar looked somewhat different when I saw it for the first time. NO KO4 but a - presumably misplaced - M57 WHDA3, and a Schwarzburger without swords. Does this help? Maybe it used to have something else, e.g. a WF3b or even a long service award in last place... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seeheld Posted September 5, 2009 Author Share Posted September 5, 2009 (edited) Sascha, you are right, but the Schwarzburg order was with swords. Somebody of the family took out the swords a longer time ago. I replaced this order. And in the last position was a Wehrmacht 12 year long service medal 1957 form. I got this bar togehter with a picture of the Oberleutnant including KrO4. The backside is red. best regards Seeheld Edited September 5, 2009 by seeheld Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rick Research Posted September 5, 2009 Share Posted September 5, 2009 Ah. That COULD mean it was a Rudolstadt and not a Schwarzburg SEK3X. That... clouds the issue. But the class of SEK mit Schwertern and the KO4 in last place are the only things that could fit. If it was an SEK2X there would be a military long service award. I've been through the navy and don't find a match. But-- you have a photo of the supposed recipient? PLEASE post that for ANY clues-- the name is clearly wrong, and any UNIT that can be identified will help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernd D Posted September 6, 2009 Share Posted September 6, 2009 There is only a Hauptmann Buchholtz, IR 171, who got the MVO4x on 02 Aug 1915. Bernd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seeheld Posted September 6, 2009 Author Share Posted September 6, 2009 (edited) Hmmm, this picture came (it's was not offered in ebay) togehter with the medalbar. I can indentify a Oberleutnant with EK 2, KrO4, MVO4X and HHcross. Thanks for your help. Edited September 6, 2009 by seeheld Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seeheld Posted September 6, 2009 Author Share Posted September 6, 2009 Her is the bar in original Ebay condition. From the family I got the information that the swords are cutted by the family some years ago. Here was someone looking for gold. The DA 57 form was replaced for Ebay only by the seller himself. Best regards Seeheld Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rick Research Posted September 6, 2009 Share Posted September 6, 2009 Please zoom in on the rank insignia on his left shoulder in the photo. While he is wearing an Adjutant's sash, this cannot be the Buchholtz of IR 171 because that officer was promoted to Hauptmann 8 November 1914-- this does not match with the BMV4X date, nor with the existence of the Hamburg Hanseatic Cross. I am sure we can find him IF we can SEE the three digit regimental number CLEARLY. It looks to me like "12X" which would make it a Württemberg regiment ( ) however he is holding a Fusilier pattern sword and not the standard IOD89. ... I have just gone through ALL the Infantry Regiments 1XX looking for anyone who could still have been an Oberleutnant with 4 decorations and the only KO4 holders were mostly adjutants or in machine gun companies. They were also mostly killed in 1914 or during the war (so no Hindenburg Cross)or had other known awards At this point my initial suspect list would be wiped out. :( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seeheld Posted September 6, 2009 Author Share Posted September 6, 2009 Oh, it's looks really special. Unfortunately the quality of the picture is very poor. :( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rick Research Posted September 6, 2009 Share Posted September 6, 2009 :speechless1: OK, Group SQUINT-- I'd say that IS "12X" which would make the regiment Württemberg!!!! The only Fusilier Regiment !XX was Wtbg FR 122 ... yet no AWARDS from Württemberg? Perhaps the WHITE cuff patch may aasist in nailing down what regiment this was? It looks to me like our Nameless @*&#ing Problem Officer is going to be a REAL "joy" hunting down and naming!!!!! :banger: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Dwyer Posted September 6, 2009 Share Posted September 6, 2009 (edited) Rick, Füsilier-Regiment Kaiser Franz Josef von Österreich, König von Ungarn (4. Württembergisches) Nr.122 had red Brandenburg cuffs with a red panel trimmed in blue, so that doesn't work with this guy. I can't read the numbers very clearly, but I looked through my materials and I find only the following regiments had a light colored panel, either white or yellow, on their Brandenburg cuffs: Infanterie-Regiment Kaiser Wilhelm (2. Großherzoglich Hessisches) Nr.116 (WHITE) Infanterie-Regiment Prinz Carl (4. Großherzoglich Hessisches) Nr.118 (YELLOW) 5. Niederschlesisches Infanterie-Regiment Nr.154 (WHITE) 3. Schlesisches Infanterie-Regiment Nr.156 (WHITE) 7. Lothringisches Infanterie-Regiment Nr.158 (WHITE) 9. Rheinisches Infanterie-Regiment Nr.160 (WHITE) Infanterie-Regiment Hessen-Homburg Nr.166 (WHITE) There are some other regiments that have light colored panels too, but they have piping around the panel and there doesn't appear to be any on the panel on this man's cuff. I'll list them anyway just in case: 5. Westpreußisches Infanterie-Regiment Nr.148 (WHITE PIPED BLUE) 1. Ermländisches Infanterie-Regiment Nr.150 (YELLOW PIPED BLUE) Deutsch Ordens-Infanterie-Regiment (1. Elsässisches) Nr.152 (WHITE PIPED BLUE) Infanterie-Regiment Lübeck (3. Hanseatisches) Nr.162 (WHITE PIPED YELLOW) 4. Hannoversches Infanterie-Regiment Nr.164 (WHITE PIPED BLUE) 2. Ober-elsässiches Infanterie-Regiment Nr.171 (WHITE PIPED BLUE) 9. Lothringisches Infanterie-Regiment Nr.173 (WHITE PIPED YELLOW) 8. Westpreußisches Infanterie-Regiment Nr.175 (WHITE PIPED BLUE) Edited September 6, 2009 by Mike Dwyer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rick Research Posted September 6, 2009 Share Posted September 6, 2009 ALL help much appreciated! This is a freakish case where so many clues simply lead... nowhere 1) the purported name from the seller can NOT be correct 2) the uniform and the sword do not match up 2) the "pre-war" Crown Order 4 which should have been a key element in sorting out the wartime combination is simply no use whatsoever-- he must have received it AFTER publication of the May 1914 Rank List. (I have a naval ribbon bar whose recipient got TWO peacetime Orders between May and July 1914....) Blocked at every turn! :banger: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rick Research Posted September 7, 2009 Share Posted September 7, 2009 I tried "sharpen focus" and got what looks like lighter piping around four sides (wouldn't it be three?)-- is this just an accident of the "tweaking" and the patch should still be solid, probably white? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Dwyer Posted September 7, 2009 Share Posted September 7, 2009 (edited) I tried "sharpen focus" and got what looks like lighter piping around four sides (wouldn't it be three?)-- is this just an accident of the "tweaking" and the patch should still be solid, probably white? Rick, I tried that on my computer and thought I could see light piping too, but I didn't mention it because I wasn't really sure if I could trust my eyes! Is it possible that it's just where the panel is stitched onto the cuff? If not, if it is piping, could that mean it's either Regiment 162 or 172 since they had yellow piping on their white panels. But doesn't yellow show up darker on the old photographs? I thought I remembered you mentioning that sometime in the past. Also, you're correct, the piping would only be on the top, bottom, and rear edges, not on the front edge (I just looked at some actual uniform cuffs on the Kaiser's Bunker website). I just went and looked at Kaiser's Bunker again. There's a cuff on there that has a solid blue panel, but if you look closely it appears around the edges just like it has piping. I think it's the stitching. I'm guessing a white or yellow one would have that appearance too. http://www.kaisersbunker.com/gtp/gtp01b.htm Edited September 7, 2009 by Mike Dwyer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rick Research Posted September 7, 2009 Share Posted September 7, 2009 That's what I was afraid of when I got the same effect around all 4 sides. Man, this is FRUSTRATING!!! I am still "seeing" 12X on there-- simply cannot account for a Fusileer sword in any other 1XX Regiment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seeheld Posted September 7, 2009 Author Share Posted September 7, 2009 Rick, I know everybody is doing his best. Maybe we will find the real name in some years. Our rolls are coming bigger and bigger... Thanks to all best regards Seeheld Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rick Research Posted September 7, 2009 Share Posted September 7, 2009 Yup-- TENACITY in the face of an "unsolvable" challenge is what motivates us. Luckily Research Cyborgs do not need sleep like humans do. Now about my ribbon bars with 13 WW1 awards whose wearer I cannot identify... We-will-find-both. Sommmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmeday. :whistle: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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