Lt. SWAAB's MOH

[Chris Boonzaier]

I still feel the Brits market their history better, probably because they are so dependent on tourist, ie American, dollars. Look how many London dealers have folded since 9/11 for want of American visitors.

I dont think this is the cause, if anything dealers are folding beacuse of the internet. I think the British orders and medals collectors have the slickest and most advanced collecting field in the "militaria" world. If you compare DNW, Dixons, liverpool medals, Spinks etc. etc... there is no comparable thing for US, French, German medals. In the UK you have "medal dealers" who would rather eat mud than handle militaria... the rest of the world has largely (but not exclusively) militaria dealers that also handle medals

The only real exception that comes to mind is Jeff Floyd, but even there, the heavy hitting bars are usually British groups by British dealers.

I also think most British groups circulate within the UK, and prices are going up, inspite of the dollar going down.

The question that burns is... why DID this go to a auction house outside of the states? Surely the market for this would be bigger in the states?

best

Chris

[Chris Boonzaier]

I disagree about Allied groups. I've never had a chance to own one comparable in emotive value to this Swaab group. The few I've been attracted to have been high five to six figures. It's also hard to compare Allied with American groups, since it must be reckoned how quickly the Americans had to develop their air arm. Swaab went from inept fledgling to double ace in some thirty days. I've had a few German aviator groups of less import than Swaab IMHO yet they have realized more than the opening bid for Swaab!

Supply AND demand...

Hi,

emotive is relative... I have paid top dollar for groups with stories I like... but the sad fact is, many folks do not pay a premium for the story.

I really do wish you well with the sale. my point is not about the market value of this group. I have no idea what that value may be. my point is, this is a group whose value will be determined by what other people are prepared to pay. But as with all such groups (and I have a number like it) the value changes the next day to whatever the next highest bidder is willing to pay.

[Luftmensch]

Thanks and I do agree with much you have said.

But in a thinly traded market one buyer can establish market value, even if it changes with the next sale. I don't know how you can possibly define "objective" value.

As for why this is at a foreign auction...no auction house here but Jeff's as far as I know has a regular dedicated medal sale. I bought the Swaab group buried in a gun sale. I would never sell it that way.

And then we haven't begun to touch on buyer psychology.

I have seen times where a buyer will turn up his nose at a presentation sword or headdress on a dealer's table, who will then consign it at the end of the season and the selfsame buyer will pay more for it at auction, come crowing back to the seller and say "look what I bought" and flatly refuse to accept it was the same piece...

All of my heavy-hitting groups have gone to European collectors or museums. Why? Don't know...

Edited March 23, 2011 by Luftmensch

[Les]

Thanks and I do agree with much you have said.

<snip>

And then we haven't begun to touch on buyer psychology.

<snip>

All of my heavy-hitting groups have gone to European collectors or museums. Why? Don't know...

"Lufti"

Andreas' auctions have been good to you in the past, and I can understand why you'd go with him again. He'll do well by you again, with the Schwaab group. Aviation related items and groupings are a specialized area of collecting (and investing) that operates a bit differently from the common and low-end place items you (and I both) feel will be littering the floors in the not so distant future.

There is a difference between people who collect for the joy of collecting, and there are people who are most or less investors who collect or trade in items with the primary drive of making a return on their investment, and not taking a loss or hit when they resell whatever it is. There are people who are one or the other, and most "collectors" probably fall somewhere between and hope/pray they won't lose money on whatever it is they bought and at some later date expect to sell.

Your point about "buyer psychology" is well taken, and applies to collectors, investors, and collector-investors alike.

Is the Schwaab group destined for being bought by a collector, or an investor, or group of investors? The way high ticket items are often bought by investors hoping to buy and sell again at a later date, and the associated hype of "value" by collectors, there are times I wonder if collecting is not that different from a Ponzi type scheme driven by people manipulating the collector and investor market.

A few years ago, many of the items in one of his auctions (which included some items from your collection at one time or another) very likely went to "eastern Europeans" who made quite a lot of money in oil-related matters. Some of the newly rich oil folks from eastern Europe may have bought investment items -outside- their home country/countries thinking that a government which could make them rich, could also strip them of money or holdings inside their country. Many high ticket items are bought as a potential hedge against home governments going south, hedging against future bad economic situations, and of course, ego satisfaction and bragging rights.

[Luftmensch]

Hiya, Les

Just sent you an email. You still bronzing that pasty (but toned) physique under a tropic sun?

While we're pitching forecasts, if we can just keep inflation under 10% then maybe collectibles will be a good hedge...or else it's every man for the consumables!

Another bout of hyperinflation would not be good for the Bechers that survived the first round!!!

[Chris Liontas]

So, I am glad I crack you up!!

How did that auction go??

[Luftmensch]

Hi, Chris

The group is leaving the country after all, to someone who feels US aces' groups are undervalued next to UK or German groups--one of the themes of our heated debate!

I'm happy with my price, which is close to what I wanted after stripping out high price commissions. This knowledgeable collector has already pointed out a few things about Swaab I did not know, so it's found a good home--closer to Swaab's old hunting grounds.

Rgds

[peter monahan]

This postcardfor sale around the time Swaab was in knee pantsshows a scene that was a staple in camp memoirs before WW1. The greasy Jew comes to a spic `n span army camp anywhere in the world, in all his stereotypically unkempt appearance, and is chased away by the boisterous clean-limbed subalterns or enlisted men. In this card it is a U.S. Army camp and the merchant has been hit in the head by a boot and dropped his wares in his haste to get away. The memoirs usually recount, unapologetically, how the merchant shows up at camp or a departing troopship to try and collect some outstanding debt, and the deadbeat officer pulls all sorts of tricks and wiles in a reversal of the usual stereotype, including marching up the gangplank disguised as a private or hiding in a barrel and being hoisted aboard ship before the searching eyes of the merchant and the adjutant. The deadbeat officer sails off to die for his country and the Jew goes back to making money for his, seems to be the implication.

One of Rudyard Kipling's lesser Tales of the Raj tells of communal rioting in a northern Indian city. One of the vigniettes within the larger story has a British subaltern, called out of his club to help control the rioters, hoping he'll meet his moneylender so he can break his head. The officer looks on approvingly as the mob burns the moneylender's house since, without the signed IOU, he has no intention of repaying his debt. Kipling doesn't comment on merits of this position but the sheer casual acceptance of both the racial prejudice and the officer's larceny are eye opening to a modern reader. But then, I live in one of the countries which turned away boat loads of Jewish refugees in the late 1930s and so helped in some small way, perpetuate the Holocaust. It's good to see that, not only were some few Jews recognized and rewarded, presumable in part for going against 'their true nature' but that those few may have had a hand in changing the very stereotypes they lived under.

Peter

Edited June 17, 2011 by peter monahan

[Chris Liontas]

Hi, Chris

The group is leaving the country after all, to someone who feels US aces' groups are undervalued next to UK or German groups--one of the themes of our heated debate!

I'm happy with my price, which is close to what I wanted after stripping out high price commissions. This knowledgeable collector has already pointed out a few things about Swaab I did not know, so it's found a good home--closer to Swaab's old hunting grounds.

Rgds

I'm very happy you sold it! That is excellent! I am sorry agian if my post was inflamitory, it was not meant to be. When I post, I always assume people know what I am saying, without me having to tell them what I am thinking. My posts are always messed up like this, and my meaning comes off wrong. I am sorry about that.

Very happy you sold the group! :)

[Luftmensch]

No worries!