France Croix de Guerre

[Ulsterman]

US marines do you mean?

[johnnymac]

Hi,

Can some one help me with this question on the Croix De Guerre,

I am looking to purchase one, but I notice that the ribbons seem to be a different in color on all the ones I have looked at, is this just faking of the colors? Or is there a standard color which sets each year apart, 1915, 1916, 1917, and 1918.

Also the 5^th & 6^th Marines (WWI) wore a “fourragère” on their uniform, did they also have fourragère on their Croix de Guerre medal?

JM

[johnnymac]

US marines do you mean?

Hi Yes, U.S. Marines 2nd Division

[Chris Boonzaier]

Hi,

quite a few Men of the 2nd Division were awarded individual CdG when they were fighting next to the french at Chateau Thierry. These men could wear the cross itself. There is just one WW1 Ribbon style, the cross they would usually have had will have 1918 on the back.

The fourragere does not mean the men could wear the cross (unless they had had an individual award)

Best

Chris

[johnnymac]

Hi,

quite a few Men of the 2nd Division were awarded individual CdG when they were fighting next to the french at Chateau Thierry. These men could wear the cross itself. There is just one WW1 Ribbon style, the cross they would usually have had will have 1918 on the back.

The fourragere does not mean the men could wear the cross (unless they had had an individual award)

Best

Chris

Hi Chris, thanks for the come back,

http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_12_2009/post-8368-126113663412.jpgGeneral Graves B. Erskine (then platoon leader in the 6th Marine Regiment) wears the fourragère with the cords hanging over the sleeve, a mark of being in the military unit when the award was made. Soldiers, Sailors and Marines who are later assigned to the unit "do not wear the outside cords "See Photo".

The 5th Marine Regiment and the 6th Marine Regiment of the United States Marine Corps were awarded the fourragère for having earned the Croix de Guerre with palm leaf three times during World War I.

The U. S. 23rd Infantry Regiment, Second Division, U.S. A.E.F., was awarded the French Croix de Guerre with Palm three times, and awarded the French fourragère for service during the following World War I campaigns: CHATEAU THIERRY, AISNE-MARNE, and MEUSE-ARGONNE. In addition, because several U.S. soldiers were present in front-line action during each and every battle for which the 23rd Infantry was awarded the Croix de Guerre, the French Government and U.S. Army Adjutant General were allowed to wear the fourragère as an individual decoration regardless of future unit assignmenta very rare honor. (In total, 434 A.E.F. officers and men were certified to wear the French fourragère as an individual decoration, per the Final Report of the Secretary of War, 1922.)

17 French military units wear the fourragère along with the U.S. 370th Infantry Regiment. The U.S 370th Inf., Regt. being part of the 93rd would serve under and alongside the French Army after both the main American Expeditionary Force (AEF) and the British Army refused to have African-American soldiers serve in combat under them. Unlike the 92rd, the 93nd would fight as a whole and the division would see combat in the Meuse-Argonne Offensive while serving under the French.

My question is do or did they wear a fourragere on their "Individual earned Medal". The dress uniform from the article above, "new unit members" as I see it did not wear the outside cords but did wear just the cords under the arm.

Thanks JM

Edited December 18, 2009 by johnnymac

[TacHel]

Fourragères are not individual awards, they are unit awards. An individual earning a CdG will not get a fourragère. A fourragère is worn by all of the unit members when the unit as a whole was awarded a CdG.

Now, as far as design goes, my knowledge is a bit limited, but I believe the cords (over and under arm) differ because of the makers. Many wore French made fourragères which differed from the later US made ones. I have both French and US made example and although similar in color, it stops there! The US made examples are much simpler in design then their European counterparts.

I'll take pictures of the ones I have as sson as I have a few minutes, you'll see the differences.

The outer cords were for citations numbering above 9 times if memory serves...

Edited December 19, 2009 by TacHel

[johnnymac]

Fourragères are not individual awards, they are unit awards. An individual earning a CdG will not get a fourragère. A fourragère is worn by all of the unit members when the unit as a whole was awarded a CdG.

Now, as far as design goes, my knowledge is a bit limited, but I believe the cords (over and under arm) differ because of the makers. Many wore French made fourragères which differed from the later US made ones. I have both French and US made example and although similar in color, it stops there! The US made examples are much simpler in design then their European counterparts.

I'll take pictures of the ones I have as sson as I have a few minutes, you'll see the differences.

The outer cords were for citations numbering above 9 times if memory serves...

This is a French Croix de Guerre, did the US also wear a fourrageres on their medal, Thanks, JM

[Chris Boonzaier]

This is a French Croix de Guerre, did the US also wear a fourrageres on their medal, Thanks, JM

Hi,

its my understanding that that is a highly unofficial practice. I am not sure if they were worn on the uniform like that.

Best

Chris

[Veteran]

Chris is right. The combination as shown is quite unofficial. It was made up in most cases for veterans who would wear their medals at functions such as November 11th commemoration ceremonies. It would mean that they had won a croix de guerre with one or more "citations" AND had belonged and been present in combat with a unit which had received a fouragère .

Such a veteran, should he have remained in active or reserve service with the forces would wear the full fouragere as a personnal award, wether he remained with that unit or was transfered to any other.

The same rule applied to men in the French forces who had belonged to units at the times when a U.S. Presidential Unit Citation badge was awarded. They wear (wore) the blue badge as a personnal award throughout their whole subsequent military carrier.

Hope this helps.

Regards

Veteran

[johnnymac]

Thank you both for your input, and "Happy Holidays".

JM

[johnnymac]

Chris is right. The combination as shown is quite unofficial. It was made up in most cases for veterans who would wear their medals at functions such as November 11th commemoration ceremonies. It would mean that they had won a croix de guerre with one or more "citations" AND had belonged and been present in combat with a unit which had received a fouragère .

Such a veteran, should he have remained in active or reserve service with the forces would wear the full fouragere as a personnal award, wether he remained with that unit or was transfered to any other.

The same rule applied to men in the French forces who had belonged to units at the times when a U.S. Presidential Unit Citation badge was awarded. They wear (wore) the blue badge as a personnal award throughout their whole subsequent military carrier.

Hope this helps.

Regards

Veteran

Hi, again this why I ask, please note he is not USMC, but the 23rd Inf., 3rd brig., of the 2nd Division was also awarded the "fouragers. He does not have a tunic disk on, but he does have four overseas chevrons which would date him maybe to the 2nd Div. Also the item hanging out of his pocket looks a lot like a fouragere tip. Looking that the ribbon area you will see a ball shape object sticking out where the "pen" slit is, just above the pocket flap. ???

Thanks

JM

Edited December 19, 2009 by johnnymac

[Veteran]

I don't really know what to think. Could be the tip-end of a full size fourragere worn in an unusual manner.

Are you sure the ribbon you pointed to is the Croix de guerre ?

Regards

Veteran

[Chris Boonzaier]

I imagine he has hooked the fourragere under the pocket flap and the metal bit is hanging down.

[johnnymac]

I imagine he has hooked the fourragere under the pocket flap and the metal bit is hanging down.

Does this help

JM