A. Thompson Saddler

[Will M]

Another item I am trying to identify. A. Thompson Saddler is stamped several times on it. My father has had this for over 60 years, it is Canadian I believe. When you click to size picture, that is about actual size of truncheon.

Edited January 20, 2010 by Will M

[Mervyn Mitton]

If you are fairly sure that it is Canadian - then it is for the Royal Canadian Mounted Police. He would have been a saddler and would have helped look after the leather equipment for the horses. This was possibly a retirement gift from his unit. The truncheon is an old style.

[leigh kitchen]

Is that definitely the name of a the police officer, or could it be that of the manufacturer?

[Will M]

Is that definitely the name of a the police officer, or could it be that of the manufacturer?

It appears to be a manufacturers stamp, it appears on it four times.

[Mervyn Mitton]

If it is the manufacturer, then why is there a presentation plaque ? Contact the RCMP Museum - they could look up the roll.

[leigh kitchen]

The presentation plaque & base may very well be of newer manufacture than the truncheon Merv, the assumption being that the name & occupation are those of the person the truncheon was issued to rather than its manufacturer?

At least the truncheon is held in place by wire or cord rather than screwed down like so many modern presentation pieces.

[Mervyn Mitton]

Leigh - I'm still more in favour of it being his name and job. Perhaps they all had their truncheons stamped for identity ? The word Saddler is very specific - and would have been an important job - perhaps it was a rank ? We are thinking RCMP - but perhaps it was one of the Provincial or Town Forces ? I wonder if there are any records of this name as a manufacturer ? The other thing to remember is that there are precedents for naming truncheons - many British ones had name, rank and number. What do you think ?

[coldstream]

Mervyn

I'm afraid I do not have access to any of your books regarding police truncheons but is this the type of truncheon or baton that would be issued to the RCMP.

I had the opportunity a number of years ago to visit the RCMP whilst in the Edmonton area of Canada and as far as I recall all the batons I was shown were of a long pattern. (perhaps a tradition dating back to their horse borne days) Would the RCMP have both long and short pattern truncheons similar to our old Uniform and CID pattern, and if so surely a man retiring as a saddler would have been given the 'mounted' version as his leaving gift?

Simon

[Brian Wolfe]

My thoughts on this item are that the stamp has nothing to do with either the recipient nor his occupation. A stamp would not have been produced to stamp an item that was a "one-off", that is to say for one recipient. As to the police service, it would be very hard to tell as most, if not all, police carried these or the weighted leather "sap" until the baton and then later the ASP were issued. My feeling is that this could very well have been either in someone's collection or was a memento of the officer's service or perhaps of the owner's father's service. I think the former to be most likely the case as if it belonged to the officer himself or his heir the plaque would have a name of the officer and not the manufacturer. A collector would be more apt to engrave the only information available to him (or her) on the plaque and in this case it was that of the manufacturer. Speaking as a woodworker I would say the board itself has the "look" of something produced in the shop of a hobbyist and not that of one that would be supplied by a trophy shop. While nice, it lacks that certain professional "look".

A few years ago I was picking up some uniform items from a supplier (original shippment was short a few pieces of kit) and over in the corner there was a box with perhaps 50 or 60 wooden truncheons as well as the weighted leather saps. The price written on the side of the box was $2.00 each! I was in a hurry and didn't purchase any I've kicked myself ever since. I know this is has nothing to do with the topic but I've reached the age where I do prattle on once and a while.

Regards

Brian

Regards

Brian

(See? I even repeat myself once and a while!) :lol:

[Mervyn Mitton]

Brian - old age and 'loss' of memory is nothing to be ashamed of - now, who did you say you were ?

Simon, I did say in reply to Leigh that it may well be for one of the multitude of small Forces that Canada has. The truncheon has the look and style of a Victorian one - and yes - they did make individual stamps for truncheons. All part of the mentality that numbered the early police. Perhaps Brian - and any one else in Canada could try a few enquiries.

p.s. Did you know that the old - plain - wooden truncheons are selling now for between £25 and £40 ( $40/60

Edited January 24, 2010 by Mervyn Mitton

[Will M]

Brian - old age and 'loss' of memory is nothing to be ashamed of - now, who did you say you were ?

Simon, I did say in reply to Leigh that it may well be for one of the multitude of small Forces that Canada has. The truncheon has the look and style of a Victorian one - and yes - they did make individual stamps for truncheons. All part of the mentality that numbered the early police. Perhaps Brian - and any one else in Canada could try a few enquiries.

p.s. Did you know that the old - plain - wooden truncheons are selling now for between £25 and £40 ( $40/60

Sorry for the confusion, I did not think the plaque would become part of the conversation. I put the club on the wood myself, it is a piece off an antique organ (panel). The engraved plaque I had done with what was stamped on the club so it made it legible as the stamp is small letters. I used wire to attach it so I did not harm it by drilling.. It came from the Peterborough area as far as I know.

Edited January 24, 2010 by Will M

[Mervyn Mitton]

O.....K , Will. If we knew where Napanee was you could expect a 'visit' from the station heavy ! Seriously though, I don't think this affects the comments about if it is a rank or, a manufacturer. The important question is - are we talking about the Peterborough in the UK - or, is there another one in Canada ? The style is very Victorian and it looks to be oak - do you have oaks in Canada ?

Strangely enough, this is a good talking point for a subject Brian raised on another sub-forum. It concerned the maintaining and integrity of old items so that they did not become distorted over time. Please don't think I'm being critical - that isn't what GMIC is about - but it does clearly show what Brian was concerned about. Should your newly made plaque ever go on sale without the provenance of it's history, then everyone would assume it was a retirement gift.

So, we must now reconsider with the new info. ?

Mervyn

[Will M]

O.....K , Will. If we knew where Napanee was you could expect a 'visit' from the station heavy ! Seriously though, I don't think this affects the comments about if it is a rank or, a manufacturer. The important question is - are we talking about the Peterborough in the UK - or, is there another one in Canada ? The style is very Victorian and it looks to be oak - do you have oaks in Canada ?

Strangely enough, this is a good talking point for a subject Brian raised on another sub-forum. It concerned the maintaining and integrity of old items so that they did not become distorted over time. Please don't think I'm being critical - that isn't what GMIC is about - but it does clearly show what Brian was concerned about. Should your newly made plaque ever go on sale without the provenance of it's history, then everyone would assume it was a retirement gift.

So, we must now reconsider with the new info. ?

Mervyn

Hello, yes there are lots of oaks in Canada, and yes it is made of oak. I also think that a picture is never the same as holding something in ones hand. Putting it on a plaque was done so it was not rolling around collecting dents and scratches. The engraved plate you can see is modern but hard to tell from the picture. Does anyone have a suggestion on how to display these items? Are there any internet sites that describe them? I have not found anything on the net, infact, this is the only old billy club I have ever seen, did enough survive to make them collectable?

[Brian Wolfe]

Hi Mervyn,

Napanee is near Kingston, Ontario, which is not too far from Perth (wife's home town) and on the way to Ottawa, where we store our politicians. As Will has said we have lots of oaks here, I believe that was one of the reasons England was first interested in Canada; oaks for ship building and masts. Beaver pelts were secondary.

Hi Will,

Might I suggest a sword-style stand that would hold the truncheon horizontally. I've attached a photo one one such stand I made a few years ago from cherry wood for a kris I have. Any wood worker should be able to fix you up. What I like about this is that the item can be removed for inspection easily and there is no chance of the wire leaving a mark from oxidization. Line the area touching the item with felt and "Bob's your uncle", you've got a pretty nice looking display stand.

Regards

Brian