Schott U-boat Badges

[Tim B]

I have wanted a nice Schott marked badge for several years now and just never found the right one or had the money available when one popped. Just recently, I got lucky with this one from Erik Krogh. Many thanks again Erik, it's a real beauty! Hope you found something you really wanted at the SOS!

I have been looking at these online now for sometime and have been anxious to start this thread to ask some questions but, wanted to find out a little bit more first. I understand that Schott was simply the designer (sculptor) and designed the U-boat badge when first conceived. He was not a manufacturer or actual producer of items per-se. What surprised me though was the possible Juncker connection to Schott badges. Is there any actual evidence to support this, or is it still educated speculation?

Regards,

Tim

[Tim B]

One of the reasons I ask, is that back in December, 2005 Detlev listed this marked Juncker U-boat with Militarpass and the die characteristics are different from the Schott marked badges.

Looking in Detlev's 2nd revision of his price guide, I see another unmarked version on page 33 that matches this Juncker marked piece.

So, did Juncker have more than one die or variety of U-boat badge? Seems like they really wouldn't need a second one considering the late date of the award being authorized (1918)and the amount of sailors that had already been killed in action. I honestly don't know and pass to those more knowledgeable at this point.

Tim

[Tim B]

A little larger on the badge; best I can do before the PIC starts to break down. You can see the Juncker logo.

Tim

[Tim B]

And here, a quick comparison of the marked Schott and Juncker badges together. You can see the noticable differences.

Tim

[Tim B]

Gordon was kind enough to send me a link to a fellow collector's site that studies Juncker produced items: http://www.cejuncker.com/3.html

I've contacted this Matt, and he is currently away from the material he has to add further information on the subject. I'm not sure if he is a member here or not, but would like to hear more on the subject. Anyone want to add some information?

Tim

[Tim B]

The other questions I had on the Schott badges centered on the die flaw progression and if anyone has placed any timeline on these? Again, I understand these badges were produced into the 20's & 30's, but not knowing how many were produced and when, the die might indicate approximately "when"; maybe.

For years, I thought the indentations on the bow were badges that had got damaged (little dings through wear and tear) but, over time noticed that there was a consistency of where these marks were occuring.

Here are a couple close-ups of the die flaws on my badge.

Tim

[Tim B]

Another one at a slightly different angle.

[Tim B]

Here's an example of three different Schott marked badges that I consider of the earliest strike. Note that no die flaw is evident. Interestingly, all three of these also have the Schott mark slightly indented on the reverse, though I believe there are also examples that are not indented.

[Tim B]

On the next two examples below; mine on the left shows the forward die flaw progressing and the second flaw is barely noticeable from the front of the badge. The other example on the right shows the forward flaw continuing to progress and the second flaw is now evident.

Tim

[Tim B]

And lastly, this example shows both flaws quite evident. Of all the file PIC's I've saved over the last 6-7 years, this appears to be about the extent of the flaw. Perhaps, this is where a die was discontinued?

Thoughts?

Tim

[Paul C]

Tim, I do not have any answers for you but I like your approach.

[Gordon Williamson]

Never actually owned a flawed Schott. Here are the last three that passed through my hands, all unflawed.

[Gordon Williamson]

The Juncker marked example is closer to the Meybauer design shown here. Note the curved feature, which is angular on Schott marked badges.

[Tim B]

Hi guys!

Well, this is what I like about forums; actual discussions, and sharing of opinions and information. Can't get that in any book or magazine.

Gordon,

I do notice the similarities here and have to be careful with two badges of different wear and under different lighting conditions when the PIC's were taken. Really hard to tell sometimes with differences in shadowing, angles, hand finishing, and overall finish coming into play.

The noticable differences are of course the trademark Maybauer pin setup and the forward antennae being reversed. I do see the crown similarities but, the cuts, as well as the level of details are slightly different. Perhaps due to different levels of wear or hand finishing, I honestly can't say.

I also see very minor differences in the upper laurel leaves that have more curl to the high points of the edges on your example. Again, this could simply be attributed to wear differences between the two badges.

Would like to see more examples if possible! I have always loved Maybauer pieces.

Do you know if Matt has any hard evidence showing Juncker did in fact get the initial contract for these U-boat badges and if so, were they the only ones? I don't want to seem like I am doubting this information, only want to see what there really is that more or less proves the Schott/Juncker connection. That makes me wonder when the other manufacturers like Meybauer, S&L, and AWS came into the picture for these.

Just thinking here: If we use the old supply & demand rules and take into account that the war was pretty much over by the time the badge was instituted and awarded, and a good majority of it's men didn't survive the war, how many badges were actually needed? Would manufacturers gamble on mass producing an item such as this? Seems wasteful IMO.

Add to that, Germany was not allowed to keep her boats at the end of the war and it would be several years before she started secretly building boats outside Germany; those members that did survive would have either transferred to other types of duty in the Navy, or got out altogether and went home after the war. With the terrible economic situation faced by all, I find it hard to believe those that got out would pay money for a badge they no longer needed or could wear, when that money could help them survive.

I don't know, just trying to figure things out.

Tim

[Erik Krogh]

Tim,

Great discussion - thanks for initiating!

Here is my marked Schot badge with a single die flaw.

[Erik Krogh]

Reverse with round pin.

Edited February 28, 2010 by Erik Krogh

[Erik Krogh]

Unmarked example with characteristics similar to the marked CEJ.

[Erik Krogh]

Reverse

[Tim B]

Hi Erik!

Great couple of badges! I think your Schott might be slightly earlier struck than the one I got from you; barely noticeable flaw and nice gilding.

How did you make out at the SOS?

Tim

[Erik Krogh]

Hi Erik!

Great couple of badges! I think your Schott might be slightly earlier struck than the one I got from you; barely noticeable flaw and nice gilding.

How did you make out at the SOS?

Tim

Tim,

Thanks for the compliment on my badges!

I picked up some WWII KM traditions badges (which I'll post in the KM section), some pretty great WWII U-Boat photos, as well as the Imperial UC 67 doc set that I posted in this forum. Definitely woth the trip to Louisville!

All The Best,

Erik

[Bosungus]

I'd like to share another Schot U Boat badge in .935 silver

Bosungus

[Tim B]

I'd like to share another Schot U Boat badge in .935 silver

Bosungus

Well, I have been hesitant to say anything here but, I honestly have major doubts on your badge. I can only assume by the lack of responses here, many others also have doubts on the originality of the badge you posted.

I am not aware, personally, of any Imperial U-boat badge made in .935 silver, though I suppose an after-market, custom made, piece is possible. I do not like the pin or catch style on your badge and you would need to post much larger pictures to show the details and maker's (designer's) mark here. I suspect it will not match original Schott badges, but without better PIC's, cannot say for sure.

Tim

[Bosungus]

Here is an image of the front.

[Bosungus]

and another of the markings on the back.

thanks

BosunGus

[Tim B]

Okay, so we see a mark that is close to the known and accepted Schott mark; the "T" looks right, as does most of the "Schott" lettering, but the "Walter" lettering looks slightly off (may be the PIC?). Larger, sharper PIC's would help. The center part of "Walter" looks worn or weakly stamped.

However, with all that said, the basic die characteristics of your badge are not the same as the originals I posted PIC's of earlier in the thread.

- The crown is different in shape, including the cross style on the front of it.

- The details of the boat are different, as is the basic outline of the boat itself; note how flat and narrow your boat is compared to all the others shown.

- Wreath details are different.

I'll stop there. Maybe someone else can give you a better opinion but, IMO, this is not an original Schott badge. Can't imagine why there would be such a completely different set of details even if making an after-market silver version, but...?

Tim