Mystery badge.

[Gordon Williamson]

Can anyone suggest what this is ?

It is collar-dog size. White metal with two of the usual lugs on the reverse.

[Stuart Bates]

Could be Military Police. Their cap badge was the same but with a scroll underneath bearing the department's title of the day e.g. Royal Military Police for QEII.

Edited April 2, 2010 by Stuart Bates

[Gordon Williamson]

Could be Military Police. Their cap badge was the same but with a scroll underneath bearing the department's title of the day e.g. Royal Military Police for QEII.

Hi Stuart,

Yes, the seller described it as Military Police but I'm not convinced it is. Firstly because of the missing scroll, but also because it is silver which would be for an officer, but there were no officers in the Corps before 1953 and the advent of the EIIR Queens Crown badge.

I'm not sure when in 1953 the first officers joined the Corps (prior to that all officers were on attachment from other units and wore their original badges). I suppose if it was prior to the Coronation, there may just have been a brief window of time when the GVIR badge may have been in silver ( in fact I have seen a couple but assumed them to be "messed with" Brass OR's pieces ) but then they'd still have the scroll.

Its a mystery to me!

[Mervyn Mitton]

Gordon - knowing it is silver helps - my suggestion , perhaps a lapel for Staff Officer ?

[Stuart Bates]

Gordon,

this probably doesn't help but I found a cap badge with slider but no scroll. It has the cypher of George V and the accompanying description says "The Military Provost Staff Corps. Brass 1936-1953."

Obviously the date range is for George VI but the lack of a scroll may be significant.

Stuart

[Stuart Bates]

I thought I had better add a photo -

[leigh kitchen]

Beat me to it, I thought of MPSC but as far as I'm aware theirs was in yellow metal not white. It was raised in 1901 as The Miltary Prison Staff Corps & changed its title to Miltary Provost Staff Corps a few years later. It had a badge of just the Royal Cypher as well, & the QEII version has a scroll under the cypher. I can't remember much else about them. I have an idea they had a design similar to The RMP at one time with scroll underneath, possbly the KEVII version but I could be wrong.

Varous units brass badges sometimes turn up wth a white metal or chrome finish, used by bands, regimental police etc. Could this one be an officers insignia?

[leigh kitchen]

I dug out a photo that I knew I had, a group of men from dfferent regments, not all NCOs' some wth WWI medal rbbons, all from different regiments.

A sergeant in the group wears the K Geo V MPSC cap badge.

The Miltary Prison Staff COrps was formed under Army Order 241 of 1901 & was redesignated Miltary Provost Staff Corps in 1906.

Governors & Inspectors of Military Prisons wore a helmet plate of the QVC later King's Crown Royal Arms in gilt, the cap badge was the crowned

KE VII Cypher, followed by the crowned Geo V cypher within laurel wreath.

[Gordon Williamson]

Here is the QVC Helmet Plate for MPSC

[Gordon Williamson]

Cap badges are more confusing. The EIIR cap badge is unmistakable as it has the "Military Provost Staff Corps" scroll, but earlier ones don't.

What you get for GVR however depends on which reference you look at. K&K show the one with the wreath. Others show the one I've attached here, which is basically similar to the GVIR type. Gaylor describes it as the Royal Cypher, surmnounted by the Crown, in Brass, no mention of a wreath. The GVR version is also very similar to the Norfolk Yeomanry badge, but smaller. Perhaps it was changed because of confusion ?

[leigh kitchen]

The royal cypher was also used as the badge for officers of Royal Engineers Services, & for The Norfolk Yeomanry came in two different sizes (off the top of my head).

[Stuart Bates]

Leigh is correct in stating that there were two sizes for the badge used by the Norfolk Yeomanry.

The larger was used on the Forage Cap by ORs and on the collar by officers in mess and levee dress (seems a tad big for this though at 50mm x 43mm).

The smaller was used by officers on the collar of their frock coats in gilding metal.

Stuart

[leigh kitchen]

The GRV cypher badge was also worn by Canadian Military HQ staff during WWI ("Cox" page 110, apparently).

[Stuart Bates]

Spot on Leigh. How do you do it?

It's as you say - number 938 and described on page 110.

Number 939 is interesting in that it has "CANADA" on the scroll beneath the cypher.

Stuart

[oldscrew]

Hello Gordon,

The badge is a female senior prison officers cap badge. Officers wore it in brass there also exists an Edward VIII pattern as well as a W/M Queen Elizabeth version. See photo.

Regards

Gwynne.

Can anyone suggest what this is ?

It is collar-dog size. White metal with two of the usual lugs on the reverse.

[Mervyn Mitton]

Well done Gwynne - it waited three years for your answer ! Gordon may be overseas at this time - however, he will be delighted when he sees your reply.

[oldscrew]

Thank you Mervyn.I only wish I owned the badge.

[Odulf]

Adding to the identification of Geo.V and Geo.VI metal monogram insignia without a motto or scroll, I made some photos when visiting a friend who collects British and Commonwealth insignia:

[oldscrew]

Hi Odulf,

Thank you posting the images.The important fact in correctly indentifying the original badge is its size in this case width 3cm x 3.5cm height.which Gordon stated was collar badge size.

Regards

[peter monahan]

I'd not seen this thread before. I was going to guess Indian Police service, but it looks as if Gwynne has got it!