Nazi gold on ebay!

[bigjarofwasps]

Hi Guys,

Found these two items on ebay, thought I`d share them with you. Genuine, who could say?

You are bidding on one original gold/silver ingot from the third reich-once belonging to Hitler himself. This bar is original and weighs 172 grams (5.531 Troy Oz). It is basicly 10% gold and 90% silver. Front is marked with eagle & A卐H, which stands for Adolf Hitler, date of 1934, .899.7 Fein Silber(Fine Silver),99.7 Fein Gold(Fine Gold) and inspector code of WaA63 on bottom. Back is marked with inspector code of WaA63, Wert(Worth) 65.47 RM (Reich Mark)total. .G. (Gold)is 38.08 RM (Reich Mark) and .S.(Silver) is 27.39 RM(Reich Mark). Has a NE.04, which I dont know what it means. Personal items of Hitler were monogrammed with AH. This bar is beyond super rare and was used as "MOBILE CURRENCY" in places where the reich mark was not accepted. Original nazi gold, silver from the third reich in bullion is unheard of and never in private hands. I am selling this as a gold/silver piece/collector piece and not as nazi agenda. I guarantee this piece to be original. I accept Paypal only. Shipping in US is $14.99 via USPS Priority mail. Intl shipping is $49.99 via USPS Register Mail. Please ask all questions before bidding. I ship very fast. Most of the time will be the same day.

ATTN EBAY: DO NOT CLOSE THIS AUCTION! IT FALLS UNDER YOUR CURRENCY CATEGORY. THIS IS MOBILE CURRENCY! THANK YOU.

270555765241

[bigjarofwasps]

&

You are bidding on one original gold ingot from the third reich. This bar is "ORIGINAL" and weighs 45.37 grams or 1.4588 ounces. Front is marked with eagle & 卐, date of 1939, and inspector code of WaA63 on top. Back is marked with inspector code of WaA63 at bottom, Wert(Worth) 100.51 RM (Reich Mark) and 999.9 FG (Fein Gold or Fine Gold). This bar is beyond super rare and was used as "MOBILE CURRENCY" in places where the reich mark was not accepted. Original nazi gold, silver from the third reich in bullion is unheard of and never in private hands. I am selling this as a gold collector piece and not as nazi agenda. I guarantee this piece to be original. I accept Paypal only. Shipping in US is $49.99 via USPS Express Mail. Intl shipping is $99.99 via USPS Register Mail. Please ask all questions before bidding. I ship very fast. Most of the time will be the same day.

ATTN EBAY: DO NOT CLOSE THIS AUCTION! IT FALLS UNDER YOUR CURRENCY CATEGORY. THIS IS MOBILE CURRENCY! THANK YOU.

270555361477

[mmerc20]

nazi gold bar.....LOL

Hmmmm...I remember something about a sucker born every minute? That guy has had that bar up for awhile and no one in their right mind would be that much for something as fake as that. Yes, it's probably gold but only worth it's weight in spot. Now I wonder if the seller is the one who did it up or did he buy it thinking it was real.

I posted about these on another forum in January and some of the major points brought up were:

Why wouldn't the markings look more professional and not something done in someones garage?

The WaA markings are a weapons mark. Why in the world would that be on a piece of bullion?

The WaA mark on this one is WaA63 which was first assigned in 1943. That makes it impossible something from 1939 would have it anyways.

The eagle is ugly. One person mentioned it "would be an insult to the reich"

It's good no one is falling for these. They are a rip off. They are doing it with silver bars too. Have seen them on craigslist, Ioffer and of course Ebay. They are being dumped everywhere.

Mike

[peter monahan]

The eagle is ugly. One person mentioned it "would be an insult to the reich"

You mean, just because it looks like a seagull and is holding the emblem off center? Boy, what a skeptic!

Clearly the seller means it was cast by Adolf himself [in his garage, of course] and that's why it looks so rough: the man was a military genius [ ] but a lousy goldsmith! :cheeky:

Edited April 2, 2010 by peter monahan

[Tim B]

Perhaps someone would fall for these if they had a later 1944 or '45 date but, they are dated 1939 when quality would have been "at least expected" better.

Tim

[bigjarofwasps]

HiGuys, thanks for the amusing replies

On a serious note, I believe I`m right in saying that Nazi gold bars where stamped with RB on them, and where dated pre-war very shadey!

I agree I`m glad no one has been conned, even ebay must know there rubbish otherwise they`d have removed them.

No, if you want to own something thats got a clear & documented Nazi gold connection, I still think its got to be the 1935 LB Swiss 20 franc Helveti coins (see my other thread). These have a very dubious history!!!

Gordon.

[Brian Wolfe]

This is right up there with maps to El Dorado.

I am surprised to see these on eBay as we all know if it's on eBay it must be 100% genuine, like all of those Pour le Merite

decorations I've been going to bid on.

P.T. Barnum would be proud.

Regards

Brian

[mmerc20]

There is a lot of discussion around the web about these right now. Sadly the most people are getting conned on gunbroker.com. A lot of people have been buying them there.

It was mentioned that actually owning one might be against the law. Since a lot of the gold stolen by the Nazis was aquired illegally (ie. from Jewish victims, stolen from jewelry stores etc) it is considered by some that the nazi marked bars are stolen property. When an American GI filled out his normal "bringback" paperwork, the company commander was to verify that not only the item was safe, but that it had no intrinsic value. Because of that they were not allowed to bring things like found bullion home. So, when these sellers say things like "my Grandfather brought this back during WWII" if for some reason it was actually real and not one of these fakes, he illegally smuggled it back.

Of course I have never seen an actual one show up in private hands and until that actually happens and hits the news we will probably never know which way the courts would swing on this.

My 2 cents

Mike

PS: I am currently writing a more in depth article on the fake nazi bullion to not only post on the forums but to use as one of those Ebay guides to help potential buyers steer clear. I had a nasty exchange of words with the biggest seller of these on ebay and I might post his comments later on.

[bigjarofwasps]

PS: I am currently writing a more in depth article on the fake nazi bullion to not only post on the forums but to use as one of those Ebay guides to help potential buyers steer clear. I had a nasty exchange of words with the biggest seller of these on ebay and I might post his comments later on.

I for one would very much like to read this!!! & would also be amused to read the sellers comments!!!

[mmerc20]

I lost a few of the other comments but I mentioned the fact that a weapons mark was on a bullion bar and we went back and forth a couple times. It was my understanding the the WaA63 stamp was first used in 1943 which I mentioned to him. (which will explain the 1943 part mentioned in the last comment) Finally, I sent him this:

...good luck to you and your counterfeits. I see you already screwed one person out of a grand. How does it go? There's a sucker born every minute?

and he replied:

think it should go...a freaking stupid hick it born every sec...and a WANNABE expert every 5 mins...you aparently dont know anything...with your stupid 1943 comment! Wow...what an idiot!! dont contact me again loser!!!!

[mmerc20]

I found the source of both the eagle stamp and Waa63 stamp! I'm so excited. I am not going to reveal it yet. I will be finishing up my report shortly.

Mike

[mmerc20]

This is meant as a guide to be put up on Ebay, but it is just as important here. I will be posting it around the other militaria forums shortly Enjoy everyone.

There is a saying most people have heard. "If it's too good to be true, then it probably is." I believe people who frequent Ebay know that phrase even more than others. That's why I felt a need to write this guide regarding the infamous "Nazi bullion" one might see not only on Ebay, but numerous auction sites and classifieds pages around the net.

It is a fact that Germany stockpiled bullion gold and silver during the war. They had acquired it by an extensive system of theft that included from businesses across Europe and from the belongings of victims of the holocaust like dental gold, jewelry and eyeglasses.

Stolen art and valuables has been a very sensitive subject since the war ended almost 65 years ago. To this day, professionals around the globe are still trying to track down and recover lost valuables that disappeared during Nazi control. It is believed that a lot of the bullion left the country in various forms (i.e. coins, bars etc). While it is not possible to prove a gold coin was a piece of "Nazi gold" a stamped bar would be.

Currently under Ebay's policy, numismatic and philatelic items marked with the German swastika are permitted while other historical collectibles are not. I am not going to get into that argument because that's not what this guide is about. Bullion would, in theory, fall into the former category, however since the bullion is considered stolen by the Nazi government; it would be illegal to own and would be against Ebay's policy.

Now some sellers have come up with stories like "my Grandpa brought these back from the war". Well, if he actually managed to stumble on the illusive gold or silver, he smuggled them back illegally and would still therefore be illegal to own.

"But why do you think he smuggled them back?" you might ask. Well, to understand this, you have to understand the paperwork process for an American soldier to return with his war souvenirs during that time. The famous "bring back paperwork" or "capture paperwork" that can add value to a piece of militaria like that German flag or the P-38 pistol Grandpa still has stashed in the attic had to be signed by their commanding officer and he was to inspect and approve all souvenirs. On the paperwork it was to be noted that the item in question had NO INTRINSIC VALUE. Since any and all bars would be violating that, the soldier in question would have had to smuggle the bar back home.

Well, if these bars are potentially illegal, why have they been popping up around the internet and no one has been arrested or ordered to return them? Well, I have to refer you to the quote from the beginning of this guide. Plain and simple they are ALL fake. These sellers are hawking fantasy pieces that are nothing more than real bullion with fake stampings. That is, I hope they are real bullion. Since someone probably applied the stampings themselves in their garage or workshop, we really have no idea how pure the bullion is short of buying one and testing it ourselves. Now who wants to fork over an excessive amount of money for something like that? In reality, since original bars are so rare, and as far as we know, not in any private individuals hands, the courts have not had the opportunity to deal with something as controversial as this. If a private individual does own one, they are not dumb enough to try to sell it on an internet auction!

The following is the only photo of REAL Nazi gold stamping I could locate. Notice the nice, finely detailed oval and the evenly stamped number "9". It clearly shows that it was probably not done with a hammer and hand-held die like the fake bars are. (I do not have a photo of the whole bar) The expertise and time it would take to reproduce this quality greatly surpasses the mediocre skills possessed by the counterfeiters producing today's bars.

While it is true that "gold has no smell", and thus can be hard to trace, bars of monetary gold are always well-marked with smelt numbers, serial numbers, names and purity, and are registered in the books of the banks that own or hold them. To re-smelt gold bars which have provenance is unthinkable specifically because it causes known gold to "disappear" and "creates" new gold. In the hope of avoiding detection at a later date, the Belgian and Dutch gold that the Germans re-smelted at the Prussian State Mint in 1942 and 1943 was given German smelt numbers and stamped with dates arbitrarily selected from years before 1939. (As quoted from www.usmbooks.com)

The fakes do not have the professional quality of something that would be housed by a bank! This was a country that produced millions of beautiful die stamped medals, impressive looking coinage and amazing weaponry, but they didn't possess the skill or time to make a decent bullion bar? And a lot of these fakes have pre-war or early-war dates when they had a lot more time and resources to do it. Come on now!

Another laughable aspect noted about the majority of the fake bars is that a waffenamt stamp of WaA63 is always used. Why would the German army weapons agency have anything to do with bullion?! Well first off, they don't. The easiest answer is because the counterfeiter saw theWaA63 stamps for sale at the same unnamed website they bought their fake eagle stamp from!

Here are some examples of the (insert appropriate expletive here) that are being sold today for insane prices. Some inexperienced or uninformed people are throwing away their hard-earned paycheck in a time when money can be very tight, so this guide was written in hopes of at least convincing one person to not give their money to these crooks.

Now, if we take the following bars and overlay the photos of the PHOTO OF THE STAMP from where they are sold on top of one of the bars, you will see they line up perfectly! The red markings are the exact pictures of the stamp from the website. The only thing I did was color them red and rotate and size to fit the photo (Cue trumpeting fanfare)

I don't think there is any question now as to the origin of these bars. It is only a matter of time before they disappear from the market, but sadly the disgruntled sellers (AKA crooks) will find another way to try to make some more dishonest money.

[bigjarofwasps]

OUTSTANDING, many thanks!!!!!!!! :beer:

[mmerc20]

OUTSTANDING, many thanks!!!!!!!!

I appreciate it. This seller really rubbed me the wrong way with his childish comments and I think he is the same one trying to sell this stuff on craigslist and all the other auction sites. I have been half tempted to contact the PD in his town and get him busted. I know it's a world where it's buyer beware but it's hard for a new collector to stay with our community when there are lowlifes out there like this. We've all been there, when you are new, you just want to build up your collection and are hoping to find that really good deal to make that happen. If they are not aware of what's going, they will get turned off and our collecting community will continue to shrink.

Mike

[Brian Wolfe]

Hello Mike,

My hat is off to you for such a great effort.

I too hope the "suckers" will read your submission on eBay and steer clear of these traps.

It seems that there is always a new scam on the horizon to steal money from those who are uneducated and/or unaware; you've covered off both of those catagories in your article.

Very well done.

Now as to my map to El Dorado...

Regards

Brian

[mmerc20]

Hello Mike,

My hat is off to you for such a great effort.

I too hope the "suckers" will read your submission on eBay and steer clear of these traps.

It seems that there is always a new scam on the horizon to steal money from those who are uneducated and/or unaware; you've covered off both of those catagories in your article.

Very well done.

Now as to my map to El Dorado...

Regards

Brian

Don't despair. The El Dorado map is on ebay right now

El Dorado Map

[mmerc20]

Apparently someone tipped him off onto the guide I wrote already and this is what he sent me. What a POS. He is just dwelling on the fact that I misrepresented the waA63 of appearing in 1943. Of course he "must have to laugh at me". Perhaps if he studied in school and learned English he wouldn't have to resort to scamming people for money and get a real job. Grrrrr! I want to see this guy kicked off the site! Gunbroker says they are "investigating" which probably means they will do nothing about it.

Mike

someone pointed out you little article you wrote! I must have to laugh at you. You have NO credibility what so ever right down to your WaA63 comment of only after 1943!!!! That just proves with a doubt your a wannabe expert! Get a life, and sorry to dont have funds to buy this piece! Oh, and...this is how ridiculous you are. That is a KILO bar you posted! Not a mobile currency! Hey, if you made some good points and knew even alittle about what your talking about, I'd be all ear's! But, with your WaA63 comment...PROVES you know nothing!

[bigjarofwasps]

Soon after the out break of the war the German national gold reserves, already substantially increased by the acquisition of Austrian gold holdings following the Auchluss, were significantly augmented by forcible acquisitions from abroad. The Nazi’s took $2,596,608 of gold from the gold reserves of the Czech National Bank and ?32,200,000 from the National Bank of Hungary. They looted part of the gold reserves of Albania, Holland the USSR and other countries overrun of the victorious Wehrmacht, and after the conquest of France they stole $225,900,000 worth of gold, comprising part of the Belgian national gold reserves, which was deposited in the Banque de France for safekeeping, by the Belgian government. The Belgian gold was taken to the Reichsbank in Berlin and resmelted. Each bar was stamped with the letters RB for Reichsbank, the German eagle, the retrospective date 1938, and its weight to three points of the decimal.

The SNB, tried to launder their gold for want of a better word, by making it into coins. By the end of the war, and just after they had minted more L1935B coins, than gold that they had in their reservers prior to the war starting. They claimed to use L1935B as a mint mark, as they stated that the gold used was from this period. However if this was the case, then all the gold they had they turned into coins, and yet still had tonnes & tonnes left over. It is also claimed that they in fact minted more coins than they had gold so must have used Nazi gold in order to produce so many. There also appears to be some Russian gold in there to. The book gives facts and figures to numerous for me to list here in order to put the case together. I strongly suggest that if your interested in this part of history then read the book, and see for yourself. I`m in no doubt that Swiss 20 Franc coins are made from Nazi gold.

There are loads of books on the market about the whole nazi gold thing, below are two that I highly recommend.

[mmerc20]

interesting. thanks a lot. I have been wanting to get some gold just to have (i collect coins too) but with the current spot price there is no way I can afford $1100+ per ounce. Getting some swiss gold would be really interesting to have and they don't command too much of a premium. Now if I could only get them at spot price or trade extra militaria for gold then I might consider it!

Mike

[bigjarofwasps]

interesting. thanks a lot. I have been wanting to get some gold just to have (i collect coins too) but with the current spot price there is no way I can afford $1100+ per ounce. Getting some swiss gold would be really interesting to have and they don't command too much of a premium. Now if I could only get them at spot price or trade extra militaria for gold then I might consider it!

Mike

I`m in the same boat. Gold coins were certainly a good investment a few years back, but as you same with the likes of Krugerrands, now costing over a $1000, its not so easy on the bank account. Helvetis are currently a beautiful coin, and theres certainly more to them than your average coin.......

[bigjarofwasps]

They looted part of the gold reserves of Albania, Holland the USSR and other countries overrun of the victorious Wehrmacht

Taking this one stage further the Russian gold mentioned, was part of a reserve `looted` from the Spanish (which included gold amassed over the centuries by the Spanish crown, including Inca and Aztec treasure from the time of the conquistadors). This gold was called red gold, because it was from south america and had a high copper content, giving it a redish colour.

"Since 1936 Russia has been sitting on more than half a billion dollars worth of Spanish gold. When the civil war was only three months old, pro-Communist Finance Minister Juan Negrin secretly ordered 7,800 crates of gold out of the Bank of Spain, had it trucked to Cartagena and then shipped to Russia in charge of four bank officials, for "safekeeping." The Russians kept the Loyalist officials in Moscow for months, counting and recounting the gold. By the time they were released, the Republican government was shattered and in flight.

For years, the Russians rebuffed attempts by both Franco and the Republican government in exile to recover the gold on the ground that it recognized neither of themor, for that matter, their claims. But just two months ago, 64-year-old Juan Negrin died in Paris. Before he died, the Franco government claimed, Negrin willed his old enemy Franco the receipts for the long-disputed gold. With this documentary evidence, Spanish officials are now hopeful that they can force or cajole the Russians into repaying the gold."

[Mervyn Mitton]

A fascinating story and well researched, thankyou - I have enjoyed following-it. However, I would take a bet that Spain never sees any of the gold.....

Mervyn

[ApathyL]

Reply to the start of the thread is one word ; GOLDFINGER .... :D

Edited May 12, 2010 by ApathyL

[Mauser_Katze-88]

:o OMG, My SVW/BCD45 coded Kar98 has the exact same "waA63",maybe it's gold & weighs several pounds. Can you give me that ebay dudes contact info, I'll offer it to him as a "mobile currency", pretty certain it has more "Buying Power" than the "supposed gold" he's stamping out in his basement.

The quality in the pics (aside from the wrong & extremely sloppy stampings) is terrible looking. "As if" Hitler would hand a lump of THAT to someone. LMAO

Given though that he "guarantees" its authentic, it must truly be Hitler's personal lump of gold right???

More likely with as shady as it looks & he sounds, it's a chunk of lead that's been stamped & then plated to simulate golds weight.

Excellent info on the Swiss using "the real nazi gold" for the "1935 Bs", tons of those available on ebay, so in a sense there is "Nazi Gold" on ebay. I doubt however that the clown in question has ever seen any of it with his own eyes though.

[Wood]

I never believed that these were even real gold or silver, are they?

Pete