Austria-Hungary Identify this cap badge?

[Thomas W]

Anybody recognize the cap badge between the two buttons on the front?

[Hauptmann]

Imperial Austria/Hungary. You'll see the same insignia on some of their badges and I also have this stickpin with the same type of insignia:

Hope this helps.

Dan

[Thomas W]

Thanks very much. Appreciate it.

[Hauptmann]

No problem. I'm assuming it was a general insignia worn by pretty much all the A/H troops... but I'm far from an expert. Hoping some of the others will pop in with more info. And with the other insignia on the cap hopefully they can nail down a specific unit.

Good luck!

Dan

[Thomas W]

Hoping some of the others will pop in with more info. And with the other insignia on the cap hopefully they can nail down a specific unit.

This guy has shoulder-strap numbers (Truppenabzeichen) that have been retouched out by the photographer; I think one of his cap badges has been retouched out, too. I have another photo of a sapper whose shoulder-strap and cap numbers were retouched out. I think my sapper belonged to Sappeur-Bataillon Nr. 61, which was the flamethrower battalion. The unit was pretty secretive, so it makes sense that the numbers on the shoulder straps and cap would be hidden in photos.

Maybe this guy is a flamethrower sapper, too.

Edited April 27, 2010 by Thomas W

[Hauptmann]

Brave guys to do that sort of thing. One round hit's the tanks and you're a human torch... not a nice way to go.

But makes sense as especially back in those early days of such weapons I can imagine they were very secretive and considered rather an elite type of force.

Great pic by the way!

Dan

[hunyadi]

Dan asked me if I had anything on this one - all that I can find is one similar in a auction catalogue - it simply states it was and "eagle head bayonet" so there is nothing unit specific - from the nature of the bayonet being a close combat idea and with the fact that he was in a flamethrower unit - I would make an assumption that this was for stormtrooper units??

[Iver]

...IMHO it is surely not a soldier of SB.61 but a normal "honvéd" soldier (IFJ on his cap kokarde) with Carl-Troops-Cross on his chest, photographed in 1917 (or later). The badge with the A-H coat of arms is a normal patriotic badge, that one next to him in shape of a bayonet is a cap badge (it is no special cap badge for stormtrooper units - it was an universal badge for everyone) - so as the two on the left side of his cap (can´t identify them). There is nothing retouched od his cap, it seems like a zinc made kappenabzeichen. I can´t see anything that would look like a retouch on his shoulder-straps, and I don´t think, that A-H army used numbers on shoulderstraps - as far as I know, there were numbers only on left side of cap and (at least should) on the collar...

[Thomas W]

The Truppenabzeichen were worn on both shoulder straps as well as the left side of the cap. The number on this strap looks to have been retouched. The k.u.k. Sappeaur-Bataillon Nr. 61 took Hungarian soldiers as well as Austrian, by the way.

Edited April 27, 2010 by Thomas W

[Thomas W]

Here's my photo of Sapper Markiewicz. His unit is not identified, but his shoulder straps and the side of his cap have been retouched to hide the numbers. Also, he appears to have dark oil stains on his hand. The Austrians used coal-tar oil in their flamethrowers, which could stain the hands. This is the only version of this photo I have. The original is at the publisher's.

Edited April 27, 2010 by Thomas W

[Iver]

Thomas W: I saw it in book from P.Jung (Osprey), but never seen it on a photo or on any original uniform from that time. I still think U have a big Fantasy (take it please not too personal). And I don´t think there was a unit that had soldiers from both countries of monarchy. They were build on the principles of "Ergänzungsbezirke", and none of them included both territories of monarchy.

[Thomas W]

I'm just going by what I see with my own eyes. I see shoulder patches which have been somehow altered, either by the photographer or by a problem with the negative. The question is why would this alteration affect only the shoulder patches and cap patch?

Here's what it says in Mollo and Turner's Army Uniforms of World War I (Poole, Dorset: Blanford Press, Ltd. 1977), page 101:

In 1917 a new system of identifying unit and arm was introduced. Each soldier received five pieces of of gray American cloth on which were stenciled the unit number, letters, or a badge. Two patches were sewn on both the tunic and greatcoat shoulder straps (so that they could be read from the front), and one of the side of the cap. Officers wore the badge on the cap only.

As for the flamethrower battalion, it recruited sappers from all over the empire, just like the German flamethrower regiment. If it recruited a Hungarian sapper, it's possible that he didn't change his uniform. I posted a photo in another thread of a Bavarian pioneer wearing his Bavarian uniform while serving in the Prussian Garde-Reserve-Pionier-Regiment. Anomalies do happen, you know.

Here's a sapper of Sapper-Bataillon Nr. 61, wearing Truppenabzeichen on his shoulder straps.

[Thomas W]

Austrian Pioniere with Truppenabzeichen on their shoulder straps.

[Iver]

...I still think U can´t say from that one photo, that the soldier is from Sappeur-battailon Nr.61 (there is no evidence for saying it). From what is written, all soldiers should have numbers and letters on shoulder straps, but without knowing the letters and numbers is impossible to say to which unit he belonged. And to that cap. There is nothing retouched, its just a zinc made Kappenabzeichen (or patriotic badge).

[Thomas W]

I never said that the guy was definitely from the flamethrower battalion. I said that it looked like his shoulder straps were retouched, and I thought his cap badge was retouched, too. That's all. When I play with the contrast of the photo, the badge doesn't get any clearer. It's just an interesting photo. It doesn't matter which unit he's from. We'll never know.

Edited April 28, 2010 by Thomas W

[Kev in Deva]

There remains the possibility the "shadowed" cap-badge is in fact painted in a dark colour.

Kevin in Deva. :beer: