Luftwaffe IMME Air Gunner

[Gordon Williamson]

Not a Lufty collector but recently acquired this one to display with my FW200 air gunner document group. It is, I'm told, a known combination of Imme wreath and Juncker eagle ?

[Karsten S]

Not a Lufty collector but recently acquired this one to display with my FW200 air gunner document group. It is, I'm told, a known combination of Imme wreath and Juncker eagle ?

Hi Gordon

A very nice Cut-off ROAG indeed. This is one of JMME´s earlier piece where they used the design of Juncker, and in your case both eagle and wreath.

It is somewhat a mystery what was going on, and is unknown what degree of involvement Juncker had in these badges.

It is still unknown if Juncker simply sold the die to JMME, or if they sold parts, for JMME to assemble, or if they started out with selling part and later sold the die to JMME.

We are yet to learn, no clear evidence has submerged, so until then, I prefer to call it Juncker Design, rather than Juncker part.

Your badge, has had it´s bolt´s removed, which was done around 1942, when the Airgunner badge was instituted. Everybody that was already Airgunner´s but had already received the ROAG, had to remove their bolt´s from the badge.

You will see this procedure done on buntmetall as well as on zincer, since the production of ROAG was already switched to zinc prior to the awarding of the newly made Airgunner, which was only produced in zinc.

In the period between regulations and finished airgunner badges ready for being awarded, the manufacturers carried out the procedure of removing the bolt to meet the requirements.

I have posted one from my collection of these factory cut-off badges from Assmann & Sohne.

The cut-off procedure was done before applying burnish, and as you can see the burnish is also covering the area where the bolt´s have been removed.

Best Regards

Karsten

P.S. Gordon, the catch on you badge seems repaired, but never the less a great piece of history. :cheers:

[Karsten S]

close-up

Edited May 1, 2010 by Karsten S

[Gordon Williamson]

Hi Karsten,

Many thanks for the info. Good clue to look for the blueing around the edge where the bolts were removed. I checked and on mine also, the blued finish is intact all around this area so I guess, like yours, mine was an original factory modification.

I did know about the repaired catch, but the price was very reasonable, even for a repaired piece. The repair looks old to me, possibly done during wartime.

The document in the group I have is dated 1942, so I am assuming that the badge this guy would have received would be like my Imme piece, - a factory modified Tombak piece so the badge is a good match for the document ?

[ERIC]

Hello Gordon,

Could very well be a good fit for the document, but it would have to have been quick work by the factory! The Air Gunner Badge was instituted I believe on June 22nd of '42 and your document is dated in the first days of July '42. I don't know if they could have gotten one modified and awarded in such a short period, but anything is possible! Nonetheless, a sweet badge G!

ERIC

[Gordon Williamson]

Good point Eric ! I always wondered however, just how much advance warning of a new type of badge was given to manufacturers. I imagine the design and approval stages were well ahead of the actual institution dates and the manufacturers would have fair warning in order to allow them to tool up. Especially since, in this case, all that was required as an interim measure until the purpose built boltless version was ready, was to crop off the bolts on the RO badge, so presumable these "interim" pieces could be available almost immediately.

[ERIC]

Hello Gordon,

I really don't know either the lenth of time a firm had from approval/institution to actual production, but I can't imagine it was very long. A clue can be found regarding this timeline, if his research is correct, in Angolas 'For Fuhrer and Fatherland' Military Awards reference on page 204 under the heading "ANTI-AIRCRAFT WAR BADGE OF THE AIR FORCE" - In the first paragraph it states " The badge was approved and instituted on 10 January 1941, and went into full production by the Juncker firm in Berlin on 31 January." Three weeks according to Angola!

ERIC

[Gordon Williamson]

Interesting. I tend to suspect that by the time the badge was formally instituted, the tooling already existed as the announcements often carried a picture of the badge, so probably the "lead firm" chosen to manufacture the badge had already created the tools from which the sample badge which became the "sealed pattern" was produced.

To use the U-Boat Badge as an example, I know that I have seen award documents for the U-Boat badge (instituted 13 October 1939) as early as the beginning of November 1939. The first firm to manufacture the badge was Schwerin,so I am pretty sure that having designed and developed the basic badge for approval,and with tooling already made, as soon as the green light was given, they were in a position to start production with badges available almost immediately.

I would think that firms would have some sort of advance notice that a new badge was about to be announced and with an amendment as simple as cutting the bolts off as an interim measure pending new tooling, could have altered examples available almost immediately.

[ERIC]

Interesting. I tend to suspect that by the time the badge was formally instituted, the tooling already existed as the announcements often carried a picture of the badge, so probably the "lead firm" chosen to manufacture the badge had already created the tools from which the sample badge which became the "sealed pattern" was produced.

I would think that firms would have some sort of advance notice that a new badge was about to be announced and with an amendment as simple as cutting the bolts off as an interim measure pending new tooling, could have altered examples available almost immediately.

I tend to agree with you on both accounts Gordon - Firms the size of Juncker, Assmann, and other major badge manufacturers were sure to have their contacts within the hierarchy of the Reich, therefore obtaining 'first dibs'on any forthcoming information leading up to its eventual production. Good analysis my friend!

ERIC

[Karsten S]

Hi Gordon

This would be a first for me to see a factory cut-off on this type of badge with burnish covering the area. Are you sure it is not patina?

My wondering is because this is the earliest of JMME´s ROAG and would have been made long before 1942 IMO.

I have only seem believable burnish on a few very early JMME ROAG´s and only on Juncker designed ones. As you know JMME is known to have silver eagles.

The timeline is:

- Juncker Design JMME ROAG in Buntmetall

- JMME Design JMME ROAG in Buntmetall

- JMME Design JMME ROAG in zinc

However I would not be surprised to see factory-made Cut-off ROAG of JMME Design in zinc, and maybe a slight chance in buntmetall, but the Juncker Designed ROAG is to early production to have been modified by factory in June 1942.

I don´t think JMME ever produced the Airgunner badge, since it has yet not surfaced. But as always there are no absolutes.

Best Regards

Karsten

Edited May 1, 2010 by Karsten S

[Gordon Williamson]

Hi Gordon

This would be a first for me to see a factory cut-off on this type of badge with burnish covering the area. Are you sure it is not patina?

You could be correct Karsten. I'll try to take some photos, though my camera is nowhere near as good as yours !