Imperial Russia St. George Cross 3rd Class w/ hand-made hanger

[Claudius]

With all the great work Noor did on this St. George Cross, I thought I would post mine as well. From the dark color of the metal, it almost appears like tarnishing silver to me.

You can see on the reverse the deeply etched serial numbers as well as the "3" class number.

[Claudius]

back, with hanger

[Claudius]

obverse cross

[Claudius]

reverse

[Claudius]

photo...

[kustik12]

Hello. Your pictures it’s so dark. The ribbon is 100% new. Cross look like original but somebody erase original numbers and put the new one.

[Claudius]

Hello. Your pictures its so dark. The ribbon is 100% new. Cross look like original but somebody erase original numbers and put the new one.

(Sorry for the late response....this one slipped by me)

Hello kustik12;

To answer your statement; the picture may be a little dark, but that is because the cross is dark. I don't believe the ribbon is new. I hit it with a black light and there was no glow.

However, it was remiss of me not to mention earlier the odd thing about the ribbon, specifically the bow. There are TWO bows. One sewn on top of another. The one on top is "newer" and has a slightly different St. George color. The bow beneath is larger and is the same color/age/wear as the ribbon on the hanger. I don't have a hypothesis why they did this. Has anyone ever seen this before?

"Someone erased the original number and put new ones Why would that occur? Under what circumstances can that occur? Again, has anyone seen this before?

Thank you for looking.

Claudius

Edited July 29, 2010 by Claudius

[kustik12]

Hello, Claudius.

This type of ribbon (texture) comes from Order of Glory (WW2).

Original one it's very hard to find.

Regards, kustik12.

Edited July 29, 2010 by kustik12

[Claudius]

Hello, Claudius.

This type of ribbon (texture) comes from Order of Glory (WW2).

Original one it's very hard to find.

Regards, kustik12.

I had not considered before that the ribbon could be the Soviet Order of Glory. That is a match. As you know, many times these St. George Crosses for sale don't even have a ribbon at all. Over a decade ago when I bought this one, I was happy that it had a ribbon and hanger.

I will have get some better photos of the cross itself. It is very dark, and the number stamp on the back is very deep. Again, why put a second bow on top of the first one?

I would like to learn more about the variations in St. George Crosses. My reference books don't mention it, and don't have different photos.

Does anyone have any suggestions?

[paul wood]

I had not considered before that the ribbon could be the Soviet Order of Glory. That is a match. As you know, many times these St. George Crosses for sale don't even have a ribbon at all. Over a decade ago when I bought this one, I was happy that it had a ribbon and hanger.

I will have get some better photos of the cross itself. It is very dark, and the number stamp on the back is very deep. Again, why put a second bow on top of the first one?

I would like to learn more about the variations in St. George Crosses. My reference books don't mention it, and don't have different photos.

Does anyone have any suggestions?

Probably the best reference for Russian award medals is Mikhail Diakov, Medals of Imperial Russia Published in 7 volumes between 2004 and 2007. It is primarily a work on commemorative medals but lists all the award medals from Peter the Great to Nicholas II including the St. George Crosses, written in both Russian and English it provides a lot of useful back ground information and is well illustrated gives issue figures in many cases.

All the best,

Paul

[kustik12]

Hello, Claudius.

Second bow doesn’t mean anything. It’s just for nice looking.

I have one too. Hanger (copy) and bow from Order of Glory.

Original hanger it’s even harder to find.

Regards, kustik12.

[kustik12]

back

[kustik12]

Original St. George Cross 3 class with #360184 never exist.

Last number strike on mint house for 3 class is 338650.

Mystery.

[Claudius]

Original St. George Cross 3 class with #360184 never exist.

Last number strike on mint house for 3 class is 338650.

Mystery.

The last number strike on mint house for 3rd class is 338650? I didn't know this information was available. Could you please tell me the source? I was under the understanding that the regiments were given different numeric ranges for each class. Perhaps 338650 is the last 3rd class number for that regiment?

[GlennC]

This is 4th class cross that have been changed to unofficial 3rd class. Probably White army issue.

[kustik12]

Last # for St.George Crosses.

Info. From State and Mint House archive.

1st. class- 42480. (yellow metal).

2^nd. Class- 85030. (yellow metal).

3^rd. Class- 338650. (white metal)

4^th. Class- 1/m 299150. (white metal).

St. George Crosses in Yellow metal.

1^st Class. From 32481 – 42480 (10000 total).

2^nd Class. From 65031 – 85030 (20000 total).

St. George Crosses in white metal.

3^rd Class. From 289151 - 338650 (49500 total).

4^th Class. From 1/m 210151 – 1/m 299150 (89000 total).

[kustik12]

This is 4th class cross that have been changed to unofficial 3rd class. Probably White army issue.

White army use “old” original crosses (if they have in stock) or strike they own (look same but little differents) and start with new numbers (from 1 to ?).

This one is Don Army Cross.

More pictures here: http://medalirus.narod.ru/Nag19_20/Xrabr2/brav_don.htm

[Claudius]

White army use “old” original crosses (if they have in stock) or strike they own (look same but little differents) and start with new numbers (from 1 to ?).

This one is Don Army Cross.

More pictures here: http://medalirus.narod.ru/Nag19_20/Xrabr2/brav_don.htm

This is GREAT!

Thank you Kustik12 for pinpointing this cross and providing the link with the websites. That is some nice research. Thank you GlennC for suggesting this was a White Army awarding.

The number of each class awarded is nice to have. I'm going to make a hard copy -print - and put it in my russian medal book.

I tried to recall who I bought the 3rd class cross from, but my notes only indicate that it was a Chicago show over 10 years ago.

I didn't respond right away because I wanted to get some better (brighter) photos of the cross to add to the thread. I haven't been able to do that with school starting again. I did however gently lift the metal back plate off the hook to see what was back there. Nothing too interesting, but I'll take photos of that as well.

So, Don Army. They operated from 1917-20 just north of the Caucaus -right? While I can understand their desire to turn a 4th class into a 3rd class, I'm surprised they serial numbered the cross. Did they keep records during the russian civil war as to who was awarded each cross? How many were awarded by the Don Army?

Where are the records for the Don Army St. George cross winners? Can this number be traced?

[cossack]

I think you possibly missed the point Kustik is making - the Don army crosses have a completely different style of St.George on the front if you take a look at the link to the images he posted for you to see. The White Armies just used up old stocks of WWI crosses & then went on to the re-designed ones starting again with new numbering & no numbering at all on many. I hate to say it but the version you have is not right at all, I have handled hundreds of these over the years, from early Imperial Russian ones in museums & private collections to Civil War ones. I inherited many from my own family too, when they get tarnished they have a deep shiny colour, not a dull finish - this is the effect of 'ageing' that was common on the copies coming out of Russia & Poland in the last 20 years.

Sorry!

[Claudius]

I think you possibly missed the point Kustik is making - the Don army crosses have a completely different style of St.George on the front if you take a look at the link to the images he posted for you to see. The White Armies just used up old stocks of WWI crosses & then went on to the re-designed ones starting again with new numbering & no numbering at all on many. I hate to say it but the version you have is not right at all, I have handled hundreds of these over the years, from early Imperial Russian ones in museums & private collections to Civil War ones. I inherited many from my own family too, when they get tarnished they have a deep shiny colour, not a dull finish - this is the effect of 'ageing' that was common on the copies coming out of Russia & Poland in the last 20 years.

Sorry!

OK....I didn't see this response immediately. After Simpi01, I guess it's my turn in Torquemada's pleasure chair. I was going to offer this cross for sale but first I want to elaborate on what we believe it is. I don't have any absolutes, only the facts and logic to argue for this cross. I also took some better quality photos.

According to my records, I bought this cross in 11/93 at a Military show in the US. I didn't record the dealer's name. The cross was/is as you see it, both the medal and ribbon suspension together. When I bought it, I thought it was a late war, possible field numbered and classed. The ribbons have been identified as WWII Soviet Order of Glory. The bow is indicative of 3rd class and one bow is on top of another. I was informed this doesn't signify anything -just two bows. The hanger is non-professional, hand-made.

kustik12 can offer that the last mint house 3rd class number is 338650 and that the "Don Cross" did have hammered/engraved numbers, but a distinguishing different style. Cossack states that this cross looks like many of the copies and has a dull finish indicative of a fake "ageing".

The question I have is, Usually "fakes" are trying to be as close to known authentic articles. They look to duplicate every detail and nuance. With my cross, why would they make every effort to duplicate the obverse knight/horse/dragon and on the reverse the monogram and then to not put a class number and use the same script letters for the serial number?

The serial numbers are usually done in the mint. This cross wasn't done in the mint because it used a different script for the numbers. If it wasn't done in the mint, the cross would use the range of numbers used by the mint, they would continue from that point.

Does anyone have similar cross they can show? Cossack and kustik12 have not come across any other crosses, but maybe someone has an example or knows a dealer with some.

Thank you.

[Claudius]

photo

[Claudius]

photo

Edited July 12, 2011 by Claudius

[Claudius]

obverse close-up

[Claudius]

reverse....

Also, are the fakers also making hand-made hangers using old Order of Glory ribbons, with TWO bows?

That seems like a lot of work. Wouldn't it be easier to sell the cross by itself?

[Claudius]

Junk...

This is the original thread to a Cross that I thought was legit.  I think the general consensus is that it is fake.

I'm not interested in an St. George Cross copy and I was going to offer for sale under Replica Sales (at a Replica price).

But my question is; if I sell it to someone, who sells it someone, who then sells it to someone else could that person believe it was legit?  Basically, I am only re-stocking a known fake back into the collecting market?