Organisational Badges Tiroler Shooting Badges

[Scowen]

10 hours ago, --dj--Joe said:

 I am confused (but getting used to it). If a 3 yr. Meister badge was awarded in 1943, for 41-43. I assume the 4 yr. clasp was given for 1944. Was a 5 yr. clasp envisioned for 1945 since there was a 6 yr. badge planned for 1946?

I also wonder what was the original thought of jumping by threes. 3, 6, 9 Yr's.

 

Just wondering,

--dj--Joe

Indeed.  A 4 Jahre clasp was issued to be attached to the 3 year Meister.  I believe, although to date I have not seen any physical evidence to support it, that clasps for 5, 7 & 8 years were planned.  Whether any were made I cannot say as I have never seen any.  However they are small & unless one realises what they were for they would be easily overlooked.

 

I think that it is also worth pointing out at this point that 1943 was not the only year that the 3 year badge was issued. Once a shooter had received a dated meister 3 times (not necessarily in three consecutive years) he or she would be entitled to the 3 year Meister.  So for instance, a marksman could have won Meisters in 1941 & 1942, but then not qualified for another until 1944, then the 3 year would have been given in 1944.

 

6 hours ago, --dj--Joe said:

Still thinking. ---- I realize there was no shoot in 1945. I wonder at what point after 1944 the decision was made, since there are no unissued 1945 badges yet they were prepped for 1946 and 1949. 😶

 

--dj--Joe

No idea.  I suspect that the 3, 6 & 9's were all made at the point when the initial approval was given as they are multi construction.  The eagles are made of iron whereas the wreaths are not, so manufacturing would not have been simple. 

 

Here is a scan showing the 4 year clasp on the full size & lapel 3 year Gaumeister.  As you can imagine, the clasp for the lapel version is tiny.

 

 

[Lance O. Adams]

Don et al,

Thanks for the information and comments.  VERY interesting details here.  I really had no idea.  Scowen has done a tremendous job with the research to get us here.  And I have certainly learned a lot.  So it looks as if my "set" is essentially a put together with mainly the horde pieces that were released and sold by dealers.  That's okay.  Two of the four as issues is quite good.  I have others that looking at the information here I am worried are reproductions.  Including several of the A. G. and Co. München marked pieces .....  Will take a group shot of these for review.  

 

While I have you Don ......  Any information on 3 Jahre number 26?  Was it awarded?

 

[Scowen]

2 hours ago, Lance O. Adams said:

Don et al,

Thanks for the information and comments.  VERY interesting details here.  I really had no idea.  Scowen has done a tremendous job with the research to get us here.  And I have certainly learned a lot.  So it looks as if my "set" is essentially a put together with mainly the horde pieces that were released and sold by dealers.  That's okay.  Two of the four as issues is quite good.  I have others that looking at the information here I am worried are reproductions.  Including several of the A. G. and Co. München marked pieces .....  Will take a group shot of these for review.  

 

While I have you Don ......  Any information on 3 Jahre number 26?  Was it awarded?

 

 

You are most welcome Lance. 

 

No, I'm afraid that #26 was not awarded either.  25 & 27 were, but not 26.....  I've often wondered how the serial numbered badges were dished out, as the numbers on the unissued badges seems to be quite random (except for the higher numbers which were obviously just "left over" after the event).  I've come to the conclusion that maybe they were just in boxes & were probably handed out randomly.  Some of the more important people seem to have managed to obtain the same serial number on their badges for each year, but generally it was quite random.

 

Yes Lance, feel free to post what you have & we will take a look at them.  Thankfully, this area of Third Reich collecting escaped the mass faking we see in other areas & fakes are fairly scarce.

 

Don

 

[--dj--Joe]

Thank you Don for the information and pictures of badges.

Please excuse all the questions. Inquiring mind and all that.  

 

--dj--Joe

Edited January 27, 2023 by --dj--Joe

[Scowen]

Never a problem Joe. I find this subject just as confusing as it is interesting. I spend years looking for an answer a question that I have, only to have the answer raise further questions 😱

[Lance O. Adams]

Thanks Don for checking on the 3 Jahre #26.  I am thinking that you are correct regarding the "grab badges out of a box" theory.  

 

I always thought this was a handsome badge, 23 mm from 1939.  Only the adler in enamel.  Traces of patina or old paint in some areas of the background.  Maker marked to Alois Klammer - Innsbruck at the reverse.  Personally I don't see many pre-war badges.

 

[Scowen]

You have good taste, these are nice little badges. It’s an Allgemeines Gauabzeichen or General Gau badge. They were given out at Kreis level at the area shooting house. 

[--dj--Joe]

How common was it to see a 1939 badge minus the swastika?

 

I do recall that Don had or has a 1942 oak leaf shaped tinnie type badge with a target. No swastika in sight. Always liked that piece.

 

--dj--Joe

Edited January 28, 2023 by --dj--Joe
Additional.

[Lance O. Adams]

17 hours ago, Scowen said:

You have good taste, these are nice little badges. It’s an Allgemeines Gauabzeichen or General Gau badge. They were given out at Kreis level at the area shooting house. 

 

Thanks Don!

Group shots of all of my round badges.  I thought that Ihad a couple of others but couldn't find them.  All are unmarked but for those with the arrows in the reverse views.  Thanks for looking ......

 

 

[Lance O. Adams]

[Scowen]

15 hours ago, --dj--Joe said:

How common was it to see a 1939 badge minus the swastika?

 

I do recall that Don had or has a 1942 oak leaf shaped tinnie type badge with a target. No swastika in sight. Always liked that piece.

 

--dj--Joe

It's fairly unusual, more so on German pieces than Tiroler pieces.  I suspect the reason for it on this one that Lance posted is that they were made the year before in preparation for issuing in 1939.  The Anschluss happened & either it was too late to change the design, or too expensive....

 

I remember the one badge ypou mean Joe.  Not sure that I still have it though.....

 

1 hour ago, Lance O. Adams said:

 

Thanks Don!

Group shots of all of my round badges.  I thought that Ihad a couple of others but couldn't find them.  All are unmarked but for those with the arrows in the reverse views.  Thanks for looking ......

 

 

 

Thank you for posting them Lance.  All except one of the lapel badges in the bottom row are also Allgemeines Gauabzeichen.  The exception is the last one on the right, the Pistole 1944 which is the lapel version of the Landesschiessen badge. Regarding the larger badges, as you know the A.G. & Co pieces are controversial, however I like them....  Otherwise there isn't anything to worry about with any of the pieces that you show here.

 

Don

[--dj--Joe]

Lance,

 

Nice selection of badges. Thanks for showing them. Wish I could focus, however I collect haphazardly.

I only have one A.G. & Co. example but I can find no reason to discount the A.G. & Co. badges.

I am aware of one other as yet unknown maker mark. B.B. & Co. (Turkish War Medal).

 

To bad TerryG's in wear picture back on page 3 is not clear and focused in on the badge.

 

--dj--Joe

Edited January 29, 2023 by --dj--Joe
...

[Lance O. Adams]

Thanks for the comments and kind words Joe and Don.  I had to laugh a little Joe as there is no one with less collecting focus than I.  Regardless, here is another one for the thread.  Nicely detailed badge with lots of enamel - Bezirksmeister - Deutscher Schützen Bund.  I do not know the era and it may not be appropriate in the thread.  Mods feel free to move or delete if needed.  Reverse has the older style double loop clasp and is maker marked L. CHR. LAUER NÜRNBERG-BERLIN on the pin plate.  Name Ludwig Roenof along with SS runes scratched into the reverse.  I always thought this was a handsome badge.  

 

[Scowen]

Another nice piece Lance, although not really my area as this is German rather than Austrian.  I've seen these with two different makers, Lauer as with yours & D.Fechler, Bernsbach.  The latter I suspect are fakes as the enamel leaves much to be desired....  They also come with an added Swastika disc glued to the target, but whether those are period I cannot say....

 

D

[Lance O. Adams]

9 hours ago, Scowen said:

Another nice piece Lance, although not really my area as this is German rather than Austrian.  I've seen these with two different makers, Lauer as with yours & D.Fechler, Bernsbach.  The latter I suspect are fakes as the enamel leaves much to be desired....  They also come with an added Swastika disc glued to the target, but whether those are period I cannot say....

 

D

Thanks Don! Thought I was getting off track with the German badge. Feel free to move it if needed. Not sure if the scratched information on this badge is contemporary o something added later. Hard to say. Will post additional later today.

 

[Scowen]

On 29/01/2023 at 18:05, --dj--Joe said:

 

To bad TerryG's in wear picture back on page 3 is not clear and focused in on the badge.

 

--dj--Joe

 

 

 

I now own that picture 😁

 

Unfortunately, even blown up the details need to be able to tell from the from whether it was a Poellath or A.G. aren't clear enough.  We can see however that it is the Kleinkaliber version rather than the Armeegewehr....

 

 

[--dj--Joe]

That is quite a nice picture. Thanks for the close up Don. I imagine period in wear images pertaining to Tirol badges are few and far between.

 

--dj--Joe

[Lance O. Adams]

Great photo Don!  I'm a S/84/98 bayonet collector so loving the detail there as well.  

 

Here is another badge I found interesting.  Kufstein 1943 Kreis-Schiessen.  I believe in gold?  Brooks posted a very similar badge for 1942 back in 2008.  Backing made of pot metal or zinc, perhaps zamak?  Reverse is unmarked.  I worried a bit about this one but have been assured by several that it's 100% good.  

 

 

[Scowen]

11 hours ago, --dj--Joe said:

That is quite a nice picture. Thanks for the close up Don. I imagine period in wear images pertaining to Tirol badges are few and far between.

 

--dj--Joe

Thank you Gentlemen.  As rare as hens teeth as the saying goes.....

 

Here's one I've never shown anywhere before with an Allgemeines Gauabzeichen in wear.  Unfortunately I can't make out which year...

 

 

11 hours ago, Lance O. Adams said:

Great photo Don!  I'm a S/84/98 bayonet collector so loving the detail there as well.  

 

Here is another badge I found interesting.  Kufstein 1943 Kreis-Schiessen.  I believe in gold?  Brooks posted a very similar badge for 1942 back in 2008.  Backing made of pot metal or zinc, perhaps zamak?  Reverse is unmarked.  I worried a bit about this one but have been assured by several that it's 100% good.  

 

 

Apart from the shoddy soldering which I suspect indicates a replaced pin, there's absolutely nothing wrong with it....  It's a Gold with Oakleaves grade, or Kreismeister.  All of the Kreisschiessen came in four grades, bronze, silver, gold & the Kreismeister which was gold with oakleaves.....

 

Here is a scan of my set showing all four grades of the badge.

 

Don

 

 

[Lance O. Adams]

Excellent photo and thanks for the information on the Kreismeister badge Don.  I am always learning things here!  Your set of all four badges is stunning.

 

[--dj--Joe]

Lance, nice badge, Kufstein 1943. The alloy must be better than the later war (heavy on the zinc alloys) as it is claimed that zinc melts at the temps. needed to apply (fire) enamel. Not sure of all the different blends of alloys used during the period. Not a magnetic badge?

 

Don, another interesting photo. Resolution on these period photos seems to be just out of grasp.   Thanks for sharing.

Were the oak-leaf wreaths not painted green on the Kufstein's ? 

 

--dj--Joe

Edited February 2, 2023 by --dj--Joe
.

[--dj--Joe]

Looking about  I saw that the Kufstein wreaths were painted green. Some examples I assume it's either worn away or absorbed.

 

I did note a badge that made me wonder -- 1943 Kreis Volkermarkt. the badge I saw had KK-Gewehr at the top, was it a small caliber event only or are there other badges for large caliber and pistol?

 

--dj--Joe

[Scowen]

8 hours ago, --dj--Joe said:

Looking about  I saw that the Kufstein wreaths were painted green. Some examples I assume it's either worn away or absorbed.

 

--dj--Joe

 

You do see examples that are painted green, I suspect that it was either done by the owners or post war.  Most are plain metal colour.  If anything I'd say that they may have been gold which has been lost....

 

I have an example with a green enamel wreath which I believe was a prototype.  The Kreismeisters are two piece badges, a gold grade badge simply dropped onto a larger solid backed wreathed bed.  With the prototype, it was dopped onto an open wreath.

 

Below is a scan showing the prototype & regular Kreismeister with the gold grade between them.

 

 

 

[Scowen]

14 hours ago, --dj--Joe said:

I did note a badge that made me wonder -- 1943 Kreis Volkermarkt. the badge I saw had KK-Gewehr at the top, was it a small caliber event only or are there other badges for large caliber and pistol?

 

--dj--Joe

 

Regarding the Völkermarkt badges. I've only ever seen the KK badges & a quick look at a newspaper clipping I have only refers to the shoot & the number of badges awarded, no mention of the weapons used.  In articles from shoots which had both, it is usually mentioned.

 

For anyone who isn't familiar with the badges Joe is asking about, here is a scan of them...

 

 

[Lance O. Adams]

17 hours ago, --dj--Joe said:

Lance, nice badge, Kufstein 1943. The alloy must be better than the later war (heavy on the zinc alloys) as it is claimed that zinc melts at the temps. needed to apply (fire) enamel. Not sure of all the different blends of alloys used during the period. Not a magnetic badge?

 

--dj--Joe

Thanks for the information and kind words Joe.  The center portion of the badge is magnetic.  The base area/wreath and pin assembly are not.