Help needed lt. d.R Robert Otto Ochel

[army historian]

Hi all I acquired this small grouping to a Reserve Lieutenant Robert Otto Ochel in the RIR 109th. Hohenzollern House Order 1917. I have no other information on him. I would like to know if he survived the War, and what other decorations did he have other that the EK 1st. Thanks Cheers Captain Albert

Edited August 23, 2010 by army historian

[Naxos]

This book would help: Das Reserve Infanterie Regiment Nr 109 im Weltkrieg 1914 bis 1918

See bottom of the page:

http://themilitaryhistoryshop.uuuq.com/themilitaryhistoryshop.htm

Edited August 23, 2010 by Naxos

[army historian]

Thanks Naxos, Great Book, too bad I do not read German. That is one reason I have so few German groups. Cheers Captain Albert

[Naxos]

Captain Albert;

That is a nice group you have - I'd love to own.

Glenn J can probably look him up for you - I would help, but I do not have the book.

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=41718

Hardy

Edited August 23, 2010 by Naxos

[Glenn J]

Captain Albert,

Robert Ochel survived the war and is listed as an Oberleutnant d.R. a.D. in the Members' List of the Officers' Association of the Baden Leibgrenadier-Regiment in October 1936. He is shown as the proprietor of the Bankgeschäft Robert Otto Ochel of Essen, Heinickestraße 9 and with a date of birth of 13 July 1885. He was originally commissioned into 7. Bad. Infanterie-Regiment Nr. 142 on 27.1.13.

Regards

Glenn

[army historian]

Captain Albert,

Robert Ochel survived the war and is listed as an Oberleutnant d.R. a.D. in the Members' List of the Officers' Association of the Baden Leibgrenadier-Regiment in October 1936. He is shown as the proprietor of the Bankgeschäft Robert Otto Ochel of Essen, Heinickestraße 9 and with a date of birth of 13 July 1885. He was originally commissioned into 7. Bad. Infanterie-Regiment Nr. 142 on 27.1.13.

Regards

Glenn

Thank you Glenn J., that is great information. Cheers Captain Albert

[ostprussenmann_new]

ALCON

This is funny that this was talked about a few months ago. I have just aquired this group myself from Ken G in Florida, USA. So now I am wondering how hands has this grouping gone through recently? I am sure down the road somebody has sold the EK1 and other medals of the ribbon bar separately. I also have this book: Das Reserve Infanterie Regiment Nr 109 im Weltkrieg 1914 bis 1918. Funny thing, this guy was in my Great Grandfather's Regiment, RIR 109. I am a major collector of this regiment and its parent unit. If anyone has any additional information or where this information came from on this guy, it would be much appreciated. Also, does anyone know who originally owned this grouping and how it was aquired.

Also, if anyone comes accross anything from the following, I am willing to buy:

1) Infanterie-Regiment von Grolmann (1. Posensches) Nr. 18 [GREAT UNCLE SERVED IN THIS REGIMENT AND DIED IN 1917]

2) Badisches Reserve-Infanterie-Regiment Nr. 109 [GREAT GRANDFATHER, IMMIGRATED TO THE US IN 1923].

3) 109th Baden Life Grenadier Regiment (Badisches Leib-Grenadier-Regiment Nr. 109)

Thanks

Jason

[Naxos]

ALCON

... I also have this book: Das Reserve Infanterie Regiment Nr 109 im Weltkrieg 1914 bis 1918.

Jason, could you look in your book if you can find this Officer? http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=46613&pid=430517&st=0&#entry430517

Regards, Hardy

[ostprussenmann_new]

I will look in my book. I started looking the other night due to excitement, but give me another day, and I should have the information.

[ostprussenmann_new]

Jason, could you look in your book if you can find this Officer? http://gmic.co.uk/in...=0

Regards, Hardy

Hardy,

I found his name on pg 204,Das Reserve Infanterie Regiment Nr 109 im Weltkrieg 1914 bis 1918 . Please read my reply. Based off of the thread, I would say we found the guy. I was pretty excited to get a post, so I started looking tonight. Tommorrow I will continue to look for more updates.

I have an update as of right now on the LT Robert Ochel grouping that I just bought, from this thread:

pg 276 of RIR Regimental history, states that by August 1918, LT Ochel, was appointed a Company Commander (Kompaniefuhrer), in III. Battalion in the Nachrichtenkomp (NEWS COMPANY/PROPAGANDA). He was also promoted by now to OBlt. or Oberlutenant (US equivilant--1st LT).

I will continue to look for more information on him if anyone is interested in me posting it.

Thanks

Jason

Edited November 24, 2010 by ostprussenmann

[ostprussenmann_new]

Hi all I acquired this small grouping to a Reserve Lieutenant Robert Otto Ochel in the RIR 109th. Hohenzollern House Order 1917. I have no other information on him. I would like to know if he survived the War, and what other decorations did he have other that the EK 1st. Thanks Cheers Captain Albert

1.7.1916: Lt. d. R Ochel, Robert listed as Kompanie Fuhrer 5. Komp (pg 129).

[ostprussenmann_new]

Captain Albert,

Robert Ochel survived the war and is listed as an Oberleutnant d.R. a.D. in the Members' List of the Officers' Association of the Baden Leibgrenadier-Regiment in October 1936. He is shown as the proprietor of the Bankgeschäft Robert Otto Ochel of Essen, Heinickestraße 9 and with a date of birth of 13 July 1885. He was originally commissioned into 7. Bad. Infanterie-Regiment Nr. 142 on 27.1.13.

Regards

Glenn

I own this grouping now. Where did you get the following information. Do you have any copies of things regarding him?

Jason

[army historian]

Jason, sorry for not replying sooner. Here is what I have on Ochel. Cheers Captain Albert

Lieutenant d.R. Robert Otto Ochel, Baden Lieb Grenadier Reserve Infantry Regiment (RIR)109, 28th R Div. Hohenzollern House Order awarded 14 June 1917, Baden Order Of The Zähringer Löwen

GMIC: Deruelle joined 15-May 05 (From Baden) Posted 19 May 2005 Hi Have a look about these items and photo from a beautiful Leutnant with EK2 One group belonged to Leutnant Ochel from R.I.R Nr. 109: photo, document, lose medals, ribbon bar (This officer received :EK2, EK1, HHO3X, BZ3bX), Feldbinde, Collar tabs, and shoulder boards, and certificate Hohenzollern House Order with swords awarded 14 June 1917.

GMIC: Deruelle,joined 15-May 05, Same group post: (History On a Bar: Any Bar Show your ID'd medals), Posted 25 November 2006: One group belonged to Leutnant Ochel from R.I.R Nr. 109: photo, document, lose medals, ribbon bar, Feldbinde, Collar tabs, and shoulder boards.

GMIC: Bayoswede (What kind of Rgt is this) Posted 01 September 2007: “One 109th Badisher to the collection.” Probably from Deruelle.

GMIC Noor (Timo Tamme) Joined: 15-March 07 (Noor’s Ribbon Bars): Posted 17 January 2010: Leutnant d.R. Robert Otto Ochel RIR No. 109 (Baden) ribbon bar, photo, veteran badge, and Hohenzollern House Order Certificate.

I traded Timo my 1^st Lieutenant James C. Pitts (Spanish American Cal Guard Group from Yas) for Leutnant d.R. Robert Otto Ochel RIR No. 109 (Baden Leib Grenadier) ribbon bar, photo, Very nice 109^th Veteran badge and Hohenzollern House Order Certificate on 18 June 2010. Sent package 23 June 2010 registered.

Lieutenant der Reserve Robert Otto Ochel in the Reserve Infantry Regiment (RIR) 109

This officer received:

EK2

EK1

HHO3X

BZ3bX

1934 Combatants Cross (was alive in 1936)

In WW1 - 8,300 Hohenzollern House Orders were awarded. It was usually award after the 1^st Class Iron Cross was awarded.

1^st and 2^nd Battalions RIR 109^th were authorized collar Lit-Zen, and Swedish cuffs same as Infantry Regiment 109.

Battle of the Somme Some of you may know that I have been compiling a comprehensive list of all possible German losses for 1 July 1916. By far the heaviest losses are associated with the areas of fighting where it was particularly deadly such as Thiepval and especially further south between Mametz, Montauban and Curlu. Losses in the regiments of the 28th Reserve Division, 12th Division and the 6th Bavarian Reserve Regiment are by far the heaviest and they fought in the sectors where the greatest progress was made by the French and British troops that were attacking.

In an associated matter, I once brought up the disparity of the official loss report used by some regiments and the actual numbers once the details were checked. This is especially important when looking at loss numbers for regiments like RIR 109 (28th Reserve Division, Montauban Sector). The regimental account used the initial loss return to portray the losses suffered by the regiment. The numbers are:

Killed: 14 officers, 94 Other Ranks

Wounded: 6 officers, 261 Other Ranks

Missing: 24 officers, 1,749 Other Ranks

Total 44 officers, 2,104 Other Ranks.

This is a correct assessment of the losses suffered by the regiment and the loss returns taken after a particularly bad day of fighting. It is however the initial loss report and as such did not contain much of the information needed to adequately determine the fate of the numerous missing officers and men.

In my initial review of RIR 109 I was able to track down the fate of many of the missing officers and men and obtain a more accurate portrayal of the actual losses suffered by the regiment. I found that the number of men killed, 108 in all was actually far higher when the first list and subsequent loss lists were reviewed.

17 officers and acting officers were killed plus at least 533 Other Ranks that were killed or died from wounds; including 23 men who died of wounds while a prisoner of war. This means at least 550 officers and men died on 1 July or from wounds received on that date and not the 108 from the original report. Most of the other MIA were prisoners of war as can be seen in the Malins film as they are marched to the rear.

Generalmajor SCHERENBERG

Died on 14 June 1917 at Warmeriville (France) from wounds received on 8 June 1917 in battle at Reims. General Scherenberg was Commander of the 231. Infantry Brigade when he was wounded.

Posted Ochel on GMIC got reply from Glenn J. 25 Aug 2010 “Robert Ochel survived the war and is listed as an Oberleutnant d.R. a.D. in the Members' List of the Officers' Association of the Baden Leibgrenadier-Regiment in October 1936. He is shown as the proprietor of the Bankgeschäft Robert Otto Ochel of Essen, Heinickestraße 9 and with a date of birth of 13 July 1885. He was originally commissioned into 7. Bad. Infanterie-Regiment Nr. 142 on 27.1.13.” (27 Jan 1913)

Traded Ochel plus cash for Kovetten Kapitan Franz-Christoph Schroeder (7) ribbon bar, paperwork, photos, and and two diaries. 30 Aug 2010. This is a great deal, from Der Rittesmiester. <br style=""> <br style="">

[ostprussenmann_new]

Jason, sorry for not replying sooner. Here is what I have on Ochel. Cheers Captain Albert

Lieutenant d.R. Robert Otto Ochel, Baden Lieb Grenadier Reserve Infantry Regiment (RIR)109, 28th R Div. Hohenzollern House Order awarded 14 June 1917, Baden Order Of The Zähringer Löwen

GMIC: Deruelle joined 15-May 05 (From Baden) Posted 19 May 2005 Hi Have a look about these items and photo from a beautiful Leutnant with EK2 One group belonged to Leutnant Ochel from R.I.R Nr. 109: photo, document, lose medals, ribbon bar (This officer received :EK2, EK1, HHO3X, BZ3bX), Feldbinde, Collar tabs, and shoulder boards, and certificate Hohenzollern House Order with swords awarded 14 June 1917.

GMIC: Deruelle,joined 15-May 05, Same group post: (History On a Bar: Any Bar Show your ID'd medals), Posted 25 November 2006: One group belonged to Leutnant Ochel from R.I.R Nr. 109: photo, document, lose medals, ribbon bar, Feldbinde, Collar tabs, and shoulder boards.

GMIC: Bayoswede (What kind of Rgt is this) Posted 01 September 2007: "One 109th Badisher to the collection." Probably from Deruelle.

GMIC Noor (Timo Tamme) Joined: 15-March 07 (Noor's Ribbon Bars): Posted 17 January 2010: Leutnant d.R. Robert Otto Ochel RIR No. 109 (Baden) ribbon bar, photo, veteran badge, and Hohenzollern House Order Certificate.

I traded Timo my 1^st Lieutenant James C. Pitts (Spanish American Cal Guard Group from Yas) for Leutnant d.R. Robert Otto Ochel RIR No. 109 (Baden Leib Grenadier) ribbon bar, photo, Very nice 109^th Veteran badge and Hohenzollern House Order Certificate on 18 June 2010. Sent package 23 June 2010 registered.

Lieutenant der Reserve Robert Otto Ochel in the Reserve Infantry Regiment (RIR) 109

This officer received:

EK2

EK1

HHO3X

BZ3bX

1934 Combatants Cross (was alive in 1936)

In WW1 - 8,300 Hohenzollern House Orders were awarded. It was usually award after the 1^st Class Iron Cross was awarded.

1^st and 2^nd Battalions RIR 109^th were authorized collar Lit-Zen, and Swedish cuffs same as Infantry Regiment 109.

Battle of the Somme Some of you may know that I have been compiling a comprehensive list of all possible German losses for 1 July 1916. By far the heaviest losses are associated with the areas of fighting where it was particularly deadly such as Thiepval and especially further south between Mametz, Montauban and Curlu. Losses in the regiments of the 28th Reserve Division, 12th Division and the 6th Bavarian Reserve Regiment are by far the heaviest and they fought in the sectors where the greatest progress was made by the French and British troops that were attacking.

In an associated matter, I once brought up the disparity of the official loss report used by some regiments and the actual numbers once the details were checked. This is especially important when looking at loss numbers for regiments like RIR 109 (28th Reserve Division, Montauban Sector). The regimental account used the initial loss return to portray the losses suffered by the regiment. The numbers are:

Killed: 14 officers, 94 Other Ranks

Wounded: 6 officers, 261 Other Ranks

Missing: 24 officers, 1,749 Other Ranks

Total 44 officers, 2,104 Other Ranks.

This is a correct assessment of the losses suffered by the regiment and the loss returns taken after a particularly bad day of fighting. It is however the initial loss report and as such did not contain much of the information needed to adequately determine the fate of the numerous missing officers and men.

In my initial review of RIR 109 I was able to track down the fate of many of the missing officers and men and obtain a more accurate portrayal of the actual losses suffered by the regiment. I found that the number of men killed, 108 in all was actually far higher when the first list and subsequent loss lists were reviewed.

17 officers and acting officers were killed plus at least 533 Other Ranks that were killed or died from wounds; including 23 men who died of wounds while a prisoner of war. This means at least 550 officers and men died on 1 July or from wounds received on that date and not the 108 from the original report. Most of the other MIA were prisoners of war as can be seen in the Malins film as they are marched to the rear.

Generalmajor SCHERENBERG

Died on 14 June 1917 at Warmeriville (France) from wounds received on 8 June 1917 in battle at Reims. General Scherenberg was Commander of the 231. Infantry Brigade when he was wounded.

Posted Ochel on GMIC got reply from Glenn J. 25 Aug 2010 "Robert Ochel survived the war and is listed as an Oberleutnant d.R. a.D. in the Members' List of the Officers' Association of the Baden Leibgrenadier-Regiment in October 1936. He is shown as the proprietor of the Bankgeschäft Robert Otto Ochel of Essen, Heinickestraße 9 and with a date of birth of 13 July 1885. He was originally commissioned into 7. Bad. Infanterie-Regiment Nr. 142 on 27.1.13." (27 Jan 1913)

Traded Ochel plus cash for Kovetten Kapitan Franz-Christoph Schroeder (7) ribbon bar, paperwork, photos, and and two diaries. 30 Aug 2010. This is a great deal, from Der Rittesmiester. <br style=""> <br style="">

Thanks. I will compile this list to add to my history of him. That is very interested about the RIR 109 on the Somme. I have RIR im Weltkreig (Regimental History) and can try to confirm this or find outer makor battle casualties.