british bar or irish bar?!

[paddywhack]

just wondering if some forum members could help in a friendly argument!!on this thread

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=40961

Noor picked up a VERY rare and sweet 3 place bar to a policeman from pre ww1 with all the visit to ireland medals ribbons on it! now i say as the police force at the time was under british rule wouldnt that mean that it is technically a british bar to an irish police man??? Noor says it a pure irish bar but i say its british!! what you guys reckon??!!shall i be eating my words!! :beer:

Edited December 24, 2010 by paddywhack

[peter monahan]

just wondering if some forum members could help in a friendly argument!!on this thread

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=40961

Noor picked up a VERY rare and sweet 3 place bar to a policeman from pre ww1 with all the visit to ireland medals ribbons on it! now i say as the police force at the time was under british rule wouldnt that mean that it is technically a british bar to an irish police man??? Noor says it a pure irish bar but i say its british!! what you guys reckon??!!shall i be eating my words!!

I tend to agree with you. Sorry, Noor! The medals/awards are those of the awarding authority / nation. The fact that an Englishman [or Irishman] won the Croix de Guerre wouldn't make it a British medal, whether he won it in the French Army or Foreign Legion or had it given him for some valiant act associated with France or French troops. Mind you, fine thing however one labels it!

Peter

[Kev in Deva]

On joining the DMP O'Shea was allocated warrant no. 10225, posted to C Division on 5/1/1900, transferred to E Division on 19/9/1913, being promoted Sergeant on the same day, transferred to B Division on 27/3/1914, and finally transferred to A Division on 1/7/1920, being appointed Station Sergeant on the same day. O'Shea was pensioned on 10/4/1922.

His police service was under British Crown rule, as such he would have been along the lines as any member of the Royal Irish Constabulary (R.I.C.)and probably his pension was paid via the U.K.

So what you have, in fact is a British Medal bar for Police Service to a Irish born subject of the Queen / King as the case may be.

Kevin in Deva. :cheers:

[Mervyn Mitton]

Ireland split in 1922 - so most certainly he was British at that time.

[paddywhack]

thats my point!ireland was under british rule till 22 so the earlist irish bar can only be from then!

Edited December 24, 2010 by paddywhack

[Noor]

My point is - these ribbons represents awards what was awarded ONLY for Dublin Metropolitan Police, designed with the shamrock design suspension bar, etc... - 100% made for a local Irish people.

I see it this way - if there is an award for army, police LS, etc and men from UK, Ireland, Australia, etc - from whole Empire was entitled for that - yes British. But in this case it is something what was established and allowed to wear only by local police force.

Of course it is not free state Irish government award because Ireland was part of the Empire at this time but it was a country, with his own local administration, police, etc and this bar represent it as an Irish bar in my point of view:rolleyes: .

[Noor]

His police service was under British Crown rule, as such he would have been along the lines as any member of the Royal Irish Constabulary (R.I.C.)and probably his pension was paid via the U.K.

So what you have, in fact is a British Medal bar for Police Service to a Irish born subject of the Queen / King as the case may be.

Kevin in Deva.

He served in the Dublin Metropolitian Police what was established locally and 1925 amalgamated into the new Garda Siochana. The Dublin Metropolitan Police did not take the side of the British in the War of Independence as actively as did the RIC. Actually DMP officers actively assisted the IRA, so nothing to do with RIC.

[Kev in Deva]

He served in the Dublin Metropolitian Police what was established locally and 1925 amalgamated into the new Garda Siochana. The Dublin Metropolitan Police did not take the side of the British in the War of Independence as actively as did the RIC. Actually DMP officers actively assisted the IRA, so nothing to do with RIC.

Noor, your splitting hairs, the Royal Irish Constabulary and the Dublin Metropolitan Police enforced British Laws in Ireland,

their wages and pension were paid for by the Crown.

The people in Ireland at this period were deemed to be British subjects.

The medals were British in design, and paid for by the British.

By the way, in the Medals Yearbook of 2006 states that the two medals

were designed by G. W. de Saulles

De Saulles, George William

Nationality: British.

Brief Bio: 1862-1903, medallist, British.

Notes: active from 1892-1903 for the Royal Mint;

served with R.A.M.C. (Royal Army Medical Corps)

as either Private 16780 or 167080 during the Boer War. (South Africa).

Online Source:-

http://irishconstabulary.com/topic/517

MEDAL COMMEMORATIVE OF QUEEN VICTORIA'S VISIT TO DUBLIN, APRIL 1900

By Command of Her late Majesty Queen Victoria, and in gracious recognition of the services rendered by both Forces on occasion of Her Visit to Ireland from 3rd to 26th April 1900, a Commemorative Medal has been issued to all officers and men of the Royal Irish Constabulary and Dublin Metropolitan Police who were then on duty in Dublin.

The Medal is also held by the members of the Civil Service staffs of the Royal Irish Constabulary and Dublin Metropolitan Police Offices, Dublin Castle.

The Medal, specially designed at the Royal Mint, was struck in bronze, and its design consists, on the obverse, of the effigy of Her late Majesty, with the legend "Victoria Regina"; and, on the reverse, of the figure of Erin welcoming the arrival in Kingstown Harbour of the Royal Yacht with the Queen on board.

At Erin's feet lie her Harp, with shamrocks and roses. Below, in the exergue, is the date "1900".

The brooch by which the Medal is fastened is also of special and appropriate design.

MEDAL COMMEMORATIVE OF THE VISIT OF KING EDWARD VII TO IRELAND, 1903

By Command of the King a bronze Commemorative Medal has been issued to all Officers and Men of the Royal Irish Constabulary who were on duty in places visited by Their Majesties the King and Queen on the occasion of the Royal Progress through Ireland in July and August, 1903.

The Medal is also held by those Members of the Civil Service Staffs of the Royal Irish Constabulary and Dublin Metropolitan Police Offices, who were actually on duty at Dublin Castle during the Royal Progress.

The obverse of the Medal bears the effigy of His Majesty, as designed for the London Metropolitan and City Police Medal struck in Commemoration of the Coronation; it is inscribed Edwardus VII. Rex. Imperator. The reverse is identical with that of the Medal struck for presentation to the Irish Police on the occasion of the visit of Her late Majesty Queen Victoria to Ireland in 1900, save that "1903" is substituted for "1900".

MEDAL COMMEMORATIVE OF THE VISIT OF KING GEORGE V TO IRELAND IN 1911

By Command of His Majesty a silver Commemorative Medal was issued to all Officers and Men of the Royal Irish Constabulary, and of the Dublin Metropolitan Police, who were then on duty in Dublin. The Medal is also held by the Members of the Civil Service Staffs of the Royal Irish Constabulary and Dublin Metropolitan Police Offices, Dublin Castle.

The ribbon of the 1911 Visit Medal is dark green flanked by two red stripes, reflecting the colours of the RIC.

Pictures of all three medals can be seen by scrolling down towards the bottom of the page in the above link.

Kevin in Deva. :beer:

[Kev in Deva]

My point is - these ribbons represents awards what was awarded ONLY for Dublin Metropolitan Police, designed with the shamrock design suspension bar, etc... - 100% made for a local Irish people.

I see it this way - if there is an award for army, police LS, etc and men from UK, Ireland, Australia, etc - from whole Empire was entitled for that - yes British. But in this case it is something what was established and allowed to wear only by local police force.

Of course it is not free state Irish government award because Ireland was part of the Empire at this time but it was a country, with his own local administration, police, etc and this bar represent it as an Irish bar in my point of view:rolleyes: .

In bold above, factually incorrect, these awards were issued to members of the R.I.C. as well, the Designer was of British Nationality, and if struck in the Royal Mint in England

particularly in the case of:

MEDAL COMMEMORATIVE OF QUEEN VICTORIA'S VISIT TO DUBLIN, APRIL 1900

then how can you claim:-

My point is - these ribbons represents awards what was awarded ONLY for Dublin Metropolitan Police, designed with the shamrock design suspension bar, etc... - 100% made for a local Irish people.

when the R.I.C. received all three of them as them as well.

Kevin in Deva. :beer:

[paddywhack]

but timo WHO set up,ran,set regulations for the force,paid the pay,paid the pensions for this force? the british goverment did!yes its true that these were for irish people BUT its not a irish bar as its a british run force! it would be like saying the zulu medal to a local african is an african award! as the irish goverment and state didnt exist till 22 this cant be an irish bar.

take a look at this link

http://irishconstabulary.com/topic/517

its states(correctly) "By Command of Her late Majesty Queen Victoria, and in gracious recognition of the services rendered by both Forces on occasion of Her Visit to Ireland from 3rd to 26th April 1900, a Commemorative Medal has been issued to all officers and men of the Royal Irish Constabulary and Dublin Metropolitan Police who were then on duty in Dublin"

so if the british king/queen is issuing these medals how is this an irish bar? its a brish medal to irish people ergo its a british bar!!!

looks like kev got there first though links and all!!;)

Edited December 25, 2010 by paddywhack

[Heritage]

Valid arguments on all sides but Ireland was part of the UK pre 1922 so medals etc even with a 'local' variation awarded by the British Government are British medals. The ref to police pensions being paid by the British is not quite accurate as as per the Anglo / Irish Treaty the new Irish Government were required to foot this bill, and as far as I can recollect there was a ref to footing the pension for the Connaught Rangers. If any one can advise on this I would appreciate it. Why the Connaught Rangers and not any othe disbanded Irish regiment I do not know!

The DMP were an unarmed (subject again to correction) branch of the police. I would imagine that the numbers of pro revolutionary policemen here were were on par with the numbers of RIC men who also supported the revolution.

Heritage

[Mervyn Mitton]

The Gordon Riots of 1780 - which caused great damage in London and ended with the troops opening fire - led to the formation in 1786 of the Dublin Police Act. Three Commissioners were appointed, together with a paid force of Constables. The Act was interesting in that it was the first time in history that the word 'Police' and not 'Constabulary' was used. Timo - I'm not sure what point you are arguing - until 1922 Ireland was a British possession - under special Acts of Parliament. Your Bar is British.

p.s. We must welcome Heritage to GMIC.

Edited December 27, 2010 by Mervyn Mitton

[Heritage]

The Gordon Riots of 1780 - which caused great damage in London and ended with the troops opening fire - led to the formation in 1786 of the Dublin Police Act. Three Commissioners were appointed, together with a paid force of Constables. The Act was interesting in that it was the first time in history that the word 'Police' and not 'Constabulary' was used. Timo - I'm not sure what point you are arguing - until 1922 Ireland was a British possession - under special Acts of Parliament. Your Bar is British.

p.s. We must welcome Heritage to GMIC.

Thank you. Very nice of you. Glad to be aboard.