Yankee Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 Dear Gentlemen Does anybody know what year the Saint Maurice went from being awarded in a smooth even enamel arm to a raised cicular edge arm. Thanks for any info provided. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yankee Posted January 14, 2011 Author Share Posted January 14, 2011 An example 1830 peiod, 30mm & fluted ribbon ring Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
farmer Posted January 15, 2011 Share Posted January 15, 2011 Yankee, I am not sure if this is what you seek but wasn't it Carlo Emanuele (Duke of Savoi) who made changes and merged insignia of both Orders into one. They wore them as an embroidered mantle badge and somewhat later made into neck badge in gold and enamels. This change took place some time before Duke's death in 1630. I am not certain what exactly did Vittorio Emanuele I changed (in the 3 books dealing with statues and regulations of the Order) but major modification took shape during reign of Carlo Alberto on Dec. 3 1831. Examples (that I saw) dating from that period already had those raised round tips. Does anyone know what was in those VE I period statues in regard to insignia? Farmer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yankee Posted January 15, 2011 Author Share Posted January 15, 2011 Yankee, I am not sure if this is what you seek but wasn't it Carlo Emanuele (Duke of Savoi) who made changes and merged insignia of both Orders into one. They wore them as an embroidered mantle badge and somewhat later made into neck badge in gold and enamels. This change took place some time before Duke's death in 1630. I am not certain what exactly did Vittorio Emanuele I changed (in the 3 books dealing with statues and regulations of the Order) but major modification took shape during reign of Carlo Alberto on Dec. 3 1831. Examples (that I saw) dating from that period already had those raised round tips. Does anyone know what was in those VE I period statues in regard to insignia? Farmer Hi Farmer Thanks for confirming that the raised circular edges had already been in existence prior to 1830. In the Spada book there are several fine examples of flat crosses all dating back to the very early 1800's all of slightly different design. I suppose back then they were made by local jewelers. I suspect Vittorio Emmanuele had changed the order from a one class to a multi class award since nearly all the monarchs at the time had copied the award system that Napoleon had created to award all those in the field not just the Generals. Carlo Alberto went further to extend the class system unfortunately I do not know either what class he added for I too do not have those statuets. It would be awesome to see the statutes from Vittorio Emmanuele & Carlo Alberto. Have you fotos of thes early examples or were they in a museum. Unfortunately examples from that period are seldom seen or they are and there all lumped together as mid 19th century examples since the design is the same. The examples you had saw should have been rather small in size from Carlo Alberto reign? Thanks Sincerely Yankee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
farmer Posted January 16, 2011 Share Posted January 16, 2011 Yankee, Unfortunately I do not have VE I statutes (I've been trying to find them or even basic translation for quite some time). Carlo Alberto's statutes (I have a shortened translation) defined Order's structure as: - Knight (in two categories : Knight of Justice and Knight of Grace). Cross was small sized on ribbon (no crown). There were no limits to numbers. - Commander; Cross was of larger (then Knight) size and worn with the neck ribbon. No crown. This class is said to be limited in numbers (my translation does not specify). - Grand Cross; Cross still larger (then Commander) in size and with crown. Worn on sash ribbon. Breast star was to be worn on left side and was to have embroidered gold/silver rays between arms. GC was limited in numbers (also no indication in my translation). Further, it specifes Order's uniform (along with hat, epaulettes and dress sword). I think stars with embroidered rays were only used at the beginning since the all metal stars were the 'fashion' of the time. Most 'big' Orders were switching to them starting around 1820's or so (Austrians and the French did so). Sadly, I do not have any of those early crosses in my collection but have seen (even handled) several in museums and 2 different collections. All seem to be made in gold and no 2 were identical. I doubt any one jeweller had a contract from chancery. Seems it became more 'organized' in that regard after 1851 secularization of the Order by VE II. Yes, all of the Knight classes were rather small as far as I remember (maybe 20mm or so). Grand Cross looked gigantic in comparison. One thing I noticed was all Commanders had this swivelled-like suspension and relatively small ribbon retainer. I will try to contact one of my friends who have some examples and hope he'll forward some photos. Take care. Farmer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yankee Posted January 17, 2011 Author Share Posted January 17, 2011 Yankee, Unfortunately I do not have VE I statutes (I've been trying to find them or even basic translation for quite some time). Carlo Alberto's statutes (I have a shortened translation) defined Order's structure as: - Knight (in two categories : Knight of Justice and Knight of Grace). Cross was small sized on ribbon (no crown). There were no limits to numbers. - Commander; Cross was of larger (then Knight) size and worn with the neck ribbon. No crown. This class is said to be limited in numbers (my translation does not specify). - Grand Cross; Cross still larger (then Commander) in size and with crown. Worn on sash ribbon. Breast star was to be worn on left side and was to have embroidered gold/silver rays between arms. GC was limited in numbers (also no indication in my translation). Further, it specifes Order's uniform (along with hat, epaulettes and dress sword). I think stars with embroidered rays were only used at the beginning since the all metal stars were the 'fashion' of the time. Most 'big' Orders were switching to them starting around 1820's or so (Austrians and the French did so). Sadly, I do not have any of those early crosses in my collection but have seen (even handled) several in museums and 2 different collections. All seem to be made in gold and no 2 were identical. I doubt any one jeweller had a contract from chancery. Seems it became more 'organized' in that regard after 1851 secularization of the Order by VE II. Yes, all of the Knight classes were rather small as far as I remember (maybe 20mm or so). Grand Cross looked gigantic in comparison. One thing I noticed was all Commanders had this swivelled-like suspension and relatively small ribbon retainer. I will try to contact one of my friends who have some examples and hope he'll forward some photos. Take care. Farmer Hi Farmer Fantastic that you were able to supply a translation of the statutes Only once I ever had the chance to examine one up close, as I remember it was a commander grade in its orginal case from 1810 era and what was most striking about the badge was the Saint Lazarus being an aqua blue instead of the traditional green. The cross itself was flat and no crown. I noticed that the crowns also varied in style, fair to say too that no two crowns were identical. This would support at the time several jewelers not one royal court jeweler supplying the House Of Savoy. That would be splendid to have the possibility to see some early examples. Sincerely Yankee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elmar Lang Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 Hello, in my late father's library there should be an ancient statutes' book of this order. I'll take it at home as soon as possible and search for possible details. What I can say is that the crosses of the Order of St. Maurice & Lazarus had the St. Maurice cross with "smooth" white enamel in the pieces dating from the 18th Century. From the early 19th C., the "trefoil" shaped endings were even more and more raised, until they became like three "balls". Best wishes, Elmar Lang Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yankee Posted January 17, 2011 Author Share Posted January 17, 2011 Hello, in my late father's library there should be an ancient statutes' book of this order. I'll take it at home as soon as possible and search for possible details. What I can say is that the crosses of the Order of St. Maurice & Lazarus had the St. Maurice cross with "smooth" white enamel in the pieces dating from the 18th Century. From the early 19th C., the "trefoil" shaped endings were even more and more raised, until they became like three "balls". Best wishes, Elmar Lang Hi Enzo You hit the nail on the head . That makes sence that the "trefoil" had gone though a transition over time. I recall seeing something like you described as being slightly raised. I just simply dismissed it as a foreign made piece or fantay . With the Prussian Red Eagle we can date them through their design change, hopefully we can do the same accurate way with the Saint Lazarus & Saint Maurce. Please do let us know what you uncover. Sincerely Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
farmer Posted January 20, 2011 Share Posted January 20, 2011 Elmar/Brian It would be an amazing find if you had copy of VE I statutes!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elmar Lang Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 (edited) Hello, yesterday I've visited my mother and have found, in my father's library, an example of the 1816 statutes and a VERY erarly knight's cross, with "smooth" white enamel. I hope this will be useful to all of us. Best wishes, E.L. Edited January 21, 2011 by Elmar Lang Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yankee Posted January 22, 2011 Author Share Posted January 22, 2011 Hello, yesterday I've visited my mother and have found, in my father's library, an example of the 1816 statutes and a VERY erarly knight's cross, with "smooth" white enamel. I hope this will be useful to all of us. Best wishes, E.L. Thats great Do let us know if the statutes mention the sizes of the knight. Sincerely Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yankee Posted January 22, 2011 Author Share Posted January 22, 2011 Does anybody have the statutes from the time of Carlo Alberto. It would be nice to see a picture of the knight and know the size if that is mentionened as well. Thanks in advance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
claudio2574 Posted May 18, 2013 Share Posted May 18, 2013 I have it. And this is the picture of the cross: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yankee Posted May 21, 2013 Author Share Posted May 21, 2013 Congratulations on an amazing find . Can't be too many of those laying around. If any other plates please show. Thanks Sincerely Yankee . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
claudio2574 Posted May 24, 2013 Share Posted May 24, 2013 No more pictures in the document. However, if you have a loooooong time to waste, you can download the pdf document from http://www.faleristica.it/room/omsml.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yankee Posted May 25, 2013 Author Share Posted May 25, 2013 A commander grade example taken from an 1848 plate. Interesting to note the most ornamental ribbon ring, Perhaps added by the artist or are there known examples of this type... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
claudio2574 Posted August 20, 2013 Share Posted August 20, 2013 Another plate, from the Netherlands, 1843. Here also the cross is flat. The orders of "Santissima Annunziata" and "Militare di Savoia" are drawn too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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