More Insanity?

[Dieter3]

Hi Rich,

Yes, instances of medals being polished (which isn't necessarily a bad thing in and of itself if you know what you're doing), actual enamel damage being repaired, not always with enamel, and then being sexed up for the sale, attempted ribbon repairs or cleaning (that didn't always end up so well if you ask me!), ribbon swapping, throwing in of rosettes with medals that originally didn't have them (I don't necessarily frown on this if it is the correct type, but it should be noted in a sale in my opinion), case swapping or adding a missing case and claiming originality. Attempted document repair even (tape, paper patches, "fixing" of damaged characters), though unless you're a conservator, why bother?

The biggest thing thing though is the mating of medals and certificates that clearly were never together, but then sold as a matched pair. Doesn't mean this doesn't happen on Yahoo! Japan, of course it does - but a little harder to figure out, but the ones that make it to eBay are clear in too many instances.

Sure, a lot of people wouldn't necessarily care about any of this, but purists certainly would, and I would personally never consider doing any of this to anything I would sell, just to make a few extra bucks, let the end-owner do it if they so wish. But I'm not a business man, I've sold only a handful of items.

On the whacky prices; of course the outliers need to be tossed from the statistics, but simply kept as a curiosity! I do find it very interesting, though it is nothing of real value. You're right - the less common pieces are more valuable from a data stand-point. Got 'em covered to the best of my ability!

[Tim B]

Hi guys,

I agree Dieter, there a many items out there that appear to be put togethers for sale and its frustrating but, what can you do and Japanese awards are certainly not the only arena this happens in. I think many collectors probably end up buying multiple pieces just to be able to get one set that is correct, then they get rid of the leftovers which also adds to the confusion.

On prices, I agree that everthing is more than likely going up over time, especially collectables and keeping track of prices can provide a good indication of how prices have risen over a certain timeframe. Not overly important I guess unless you want to see/show this from an investment or historical view point. Still, the consistent high price being realized by some of the more common pieces alludes me as there is no real justification behind it. Price guides in my opinion are not worth the paper they are printed on, regardless who puts their name to it. Most are out of date before the printed reference is published and really, it still comes down to what the potential buyer is willing to pay for it.

It's that last sentence above that supports data, like Dieter is recording on actual sales, that prove more useful or provides a better idea what items are currently commanding.

A good case in point was Detlev's old price guides on German Medals/Badges. The prices being asked by dealers was already higher than anything listed in his catalog when it came out and originally those prices were listed in Deutsch Marks. When the Euro came about, those prices were simply converted by many dealers straight across the board and you can't tell me that all those items immediately doubled in value just because of the differences between DM/Euros.

Anyway, if you want to stay in the collecting game, you either pay what is being asked, or become a very smart shopper and learn to shop around and make offers. My 2 cents for what it worth.

Tim

Edited March 18, 2011 by Tim B

[fukuoka]

All good points. Thanks for answering.

Dieter, you may wish to point out the sellers' IDs if there are particularly egregious examples. On other collector forums (such as the Wehrmacht discussion groups), people do not hesitate to point out fakes or sellers who continue to pull sleights-of-hand. I think collectors would appreciate your vigilance. (If the culprit is ever Yours Truly, fell free to call me out--although I do not think I am guilty of the sorts of offences you described.)

Anyway, nice discussion.

Cheers, Rich

[Dieter3]

Hi Rich,

No, in fact of the seller-members that I know here, none are guilty of such activities!!! While I have mixed feelings about public smearings, I can share information privately if anyone so desires.

[Tim B]

Hi Rich,

No Dieter is correct here, no sense in publically smearing anyone, only leads to hate and discontent and those that are deliberately selling questionable items are fully aware of what they are doing IMO. There are always a few that honestly don't know and no sense in going after them.

Luckily, most of the sellers of Japanese items that I frequent are very honest and if there is a mistake, they will try to work anything out.

Tim

[fukuoka]

I understand the reluctance to post seller IDs. Spreading hate is never a good thing, and there is always the possibility of being wrong. So you two are correct.

I just re-read Dieter's last post about some sellers putting medals with cases that weren't with found together. Here is my opinion on that situation. Please tell me what you think.

1. Putting an order (Rising Sun, Sacred Treasure, Sacred Crown, Golden Kite, etc.) with a found case is not cool since there are obvious differences to the cases over time. Even a case that one suspects is from the same time period as the medal is a no-no simply because we really have little objective information about the dating of medals (other than some opinions, which is a subject for a different post).

2. Putting a war or commemorative medal with a found case is fine. Since these medals were made over a short span of time, the cases don't really have variants. (Some color tints appear different, but I think that may be fading.) Anyway, I think replacing those cases is perfectly OK without adding a disclaimer.

Cheers,

Rich

[Dieter3]

I just re-read Dieter's last post about some sellers putting medals with cases that weren't with found together. Here is my opinion on that situation. Please tell me what you think.

1. Putting an order (Rising Sun, Sacred Treasure, Sacred Crown, Golden Kite, etc.) with a found case is not cool since there are obvious differences to the cases over time. Even a case that one suspects is from the same time period as the medal is a no-no simply because we really have little objective information about the dating of medals (other than some opinions, which is a subject for a different post).

2. Putting a war or commemorative medal with a found case is fine. Since these medals were made over a short span of time, the cases don't really have variants. (Some color tints appear different, but I think that may be fading.) Anyway, I think replacing those cases is perfectly OK without adding a disclaimer.

Rich - totally agree with you on cases for orders, AND I'd be certainly interested in opening up a dialog on the dating of these since it is so daunting. I'm 99% with you on the commemoratives and campaign medal cases, that 1% hold out is the desire for 100% pure, but you are right, the dates are clearly known, and the variants are few. Perhaps the one and only reservation I might have would be with regard to the Showa Entronement medal as there are several distinct variants (well, at least three - black, purple, and half/half, I don't know that I'd consider shading as a variant) and the varying hallmarks - the only question I would have would be whether or not all of the hallmarks occur consistently in all case variants, or would say an "M" hallmarked medal only be found in a black case? At the end of the day, does it really matter? Probably not, but for the sake of 100% historical accuracy it kinda does to me anyway.

But yes, I certainly understand reuniting a commemorative or campaign case with a medal.

[fukuoka]

Perhaps the one and only reservation I might have would be with regard to the Showa Entronement medal as there are several distinct variants (well, at least three - black, purple, and half/half, I don't know that I'd consider shading as a variant) and the varying hallmarks - the only question I would have would be whether or not all of the hallmarks occur consistently in all case variants, or would say an "M" hallmarked medal only be found in a black case? At the end of the day, does it really matter? Probably not, but for the sake of 100% historical accuracy it kinda does to me anyway.

That medal is an interesting exception, and the Medal Scandal of the same year (concerned with selling of the Showa medal and some orders) led to all the medals being made by the Japan Mint after 1928. However, you are right that the case shade differs considerably. The manufacturers were probably different. Cannot even begin to guess on which mint mark goes with which case, though.

Rich

[Dieter3]

And it could be that all mint marks could have gone with every type of case! It would just be interesting to know if one type was limited to a specific case. The "M" marked medals do seem to be the rarest of the Showa Enthronement, but I guess that does not mean they would be necessarily limited to a specific case. I'd imagine the mint made the medal, and somebody else made cases - but I must beg the question - WHY black, purple, mixed colors? What's behind that?? We will probably never know - could it have been a way to know WHO manufactured a specific lot? I must say tough, that the UNKNOWN, while frustrating from a certain standpoint, also adds to the intrigue and enjoyment of collecting from another!

[Tim B]

These questions are exactly why we need a current, accurate, and detailed reference on the subject. Unfortunately, a lot of the data is probably no longer accessable.

I too follow the reasoning that the cases were probably made by separate manufacturers and then sold/distributed to the medal manufacturers prior to distribution to the issuing authority. I see enough "slight" variations in the Kanji on the lacquered boxes to say companies had several artisans doing this by hand. My concerns would be to make sure the right case lettering matches the correct era medal. I don't think we can realistically expect more at this point.

An interesting note on the Showa Enthronement Medal box variations. I have seen the black and purple versions and never took much notice of it, figuring different makers, but perhaps the color of the case signifies "who" received the medal; military, civil services, other, etc.

Tim

[Dieter3]

I too follow the reasoning that the cases were probably made by separate manufacturers and then sold/distributed to the medal manufacturers prior to distribution to the issuing authority. I see enough "slight" variations in the Kanji on the lacquered boxes to say companies had several artisans doing this by hand.

Well, we know this is certainly the case for Red Cross lacquer cases - you actually find these often with the maker's info painted on the bottom! I've seen at least two different makers like this, plus the ones that are unpainted, so who really knows how many there were - but clearly multiple people/shops did this. Does it apply to other orders and medals? Likely in my opinion, but I have yet to see any of these marked as such!

My concerns would be to make sure the right case lettering matches the correct era medal. I don't think we can realistically expect more at this point.

That's the trick!

An interesting note on the Showa Enthronement Medal box variations. I have seen the black and purple versions and never took much notice of it, figuring different makers, but perhaps the color of the case signifies "who" received the medal; military, civil services, other, etc.

Tim

A very interesting theory! It does not seem out of the realm of possibility.

[Dieter3]

Basic China Incident medal with case (split in two parts at the hinge) - not the best quality auction pics., but the medal itself appeared to be in good condition - 81 Aussie Dollars, about $83.XX U.S. Wow. Didn't even have the wrapping paper! This gets better everyday....

[Tim B]

You should see what some collectors are starting to ask for very common and average conditioned items on another forum.

Well, like I said before Dieter, be glad you started collecting these when you did and were able to get what you did at those prices as I do not think we are going back to those days anymore.

Tim

[Dieter3]

Yeah, wish I would have gotten into these years, and years ago though! Still, a lot of these do seem to be extreme examples, a lot owed to newbism, but that still baffles me considering there are tons of these medals and easy to find in really nice shape. I do sometimes wonder what the "feedback effect" is - on the surface of things, it does seem like those with tons of positive feedback are able to fetch more $$$$ than those with less feedback on comparable pieces. A trust thing??? Perhaps it is similar to the phenomenon of paying more money for the same thing at one venue vs. another simply because the service is better? Really quite interesting.

[FrontlineAntiques]

I have noticed over recent years that items ending on either a Sunday evening or Thursday evening always seen to do better than those ending on other days of the week.

I took this to be due to people having more free time to have a play about on ebay on these days. Since noticing this trend I began to solely list my items between 7.30pm and 9pm on a Sunday, ending at the same time the following week, and have realised an increase of up to 35% in the prices my things have achieved.

Dan

[Dieter3]

I have noticed over recent years that items ending on either a Sunday evening or Thursday evening always seen to do better than those ending on other days of the week.

I took this to be due to people having more free time to have a play about on ebay on these days. Since noticing this trend I began to solely list my items between 7.30pm and 9pm on a Sunday, ending at the same time the following week, and have realised an increase of up to 35% in the prices my things have achieved.

Dan

Now that IS interesting! Sundays make sense, but I wonder why Thursdays? (paydays??) 35% increase - wow! Substantial!

[FrontlineAntiques]

Now that IS interesting! Sundays make sense, but I wonder why Thursdays? (paydays??) 35% increase - wow! Substantial!

If only i was sellinf something other than British WWII Campaighn stars I might be rich!

Dan :cheers:

[Tim B]

Hi guys,

I've seen this trend as well in several areas, not only Japanese or British ODM's. I think you'll find this can be seasonal as well due to people being outside more and longer in the summer months.

I always have more competition when auctions end on weekends. Like you said, more time to play online as most people are off work and Sunday traditionally is more of a day off compared to Saturday.

Now, don't spread the word...

Tim

[Dieter3]

Drum roll please.......................

$193.50

[Tim B]

:speechless1:

For that price, I'll sell mine and even throw in free shipping!

Tim

[Tim B]

Try these numbers:

190405988023

350452331291

350452343619

350406901400

350411193893

RIDICULOUS! Pure greed, nothing more.:shame:

[Brian Wolfe]

Ok, now you've made my jaw drop.

Just how badly can any one person want an item?

Regards

Brian

[Dieter3]

For that price, I'll sell mine and even throw in free shipping!

Tim

No doubt! These routinely sell for around $30-$35 U.S. in this condition or better on Yahoo! Japan. The seller didn't start high either or try to "oversell" the item, this was just a case of, well, something.....

Try these numbers:

190405988023

350452331291

350452343619

350406901400

350411193893

RIDICULOUS! Pure greed, nothing more.

You know, not to slam anyone in the free market, but it is my opinion that eMedals is way overpriced on pretty much everything and how they even do business is beyond me, not for those prices. But hey, more power to them if people are willing to pay those prices! Granted, they do sell some rare items too, but commonplace stuff? BUt geez.....with some of these recent eBay prices, making them look like a bargain!

Ok, now you've made my jaw drop.

Just how badly can any one person want an item?

Regards

Brian

Well, I guess pretty badly!! My advice: stay off the booze and drugs while on eBay.......

[Brian Wolfe]

Re: eMedals,

I think if you are only looking for bargains then this is not the place to play. However, as Dieter has intimated, if you are looking for rarer items Barry may well have them. I have purchased from eMedals in the past and found that if you "shop" through their stock for harder to find specimens you can sometimes get a pleasant surprise.

This is neither an endorsement nor a criticism, just an observation.

Regards

Brian

[Josef Rietveld]

Did this one run under insanity, or was this piece something special i didn't see?

EBAY

josef