British Victory Medals

[Gunner 1]

Bilco:  Would it be possible for you to post a scan of the soldering (or lack thereof) on the suspension ring?

[Bilco]

Hi Gunner1,

 

The join in the suspension ring is hard to see ...

 

 

 

...but I think it's at the 2 o'clock in this photo. Hope that is what you are after.

 

Bill

[Gunner 1]

I am not convinced that it is a Type I VM.  The soldering on the suspension ring is the same color as the suspension ring and blends with it - this is a characteristic of the Type II VM.  Type I VMs suspension rings are either un-soldered or are soldered with a grayish-white solder.

[Bilco]

Hi Gunner 1,

 

Interesting - my guaranteed Type 1 - I have the acknowledgement of receipt dated 17 Dec 1920 - has an open, unsoldered joint, while my other suspect is the same as the photo above.

In-hand, the joint is more gray than the photo shows - that's what helped me spot the join - you can see in the photo a thin gray line. What about the soldered barrel suspension - does that not mean a Type 1?

 

Bill

[Gunner 1]

My opinion is that you cannot always tell a Type I VM on just one feature alone, such as the soldered barrel suspension (maybe it was soldered after being damaged or broken), but most use all of the features together.  As you indicate, your "guaranteed" Type I that has an issue date in 1920, has an un-soldered suspension ring and that, or one that is soldered with very noticeable silver solder, is what I have seen on the Type I VMs that I have examined. The solder on the suspension ring of the VM you illustrate above does not have that characteristic.

Edited April 19, 2015 by Gunner 1

[Bilco]

Hi Gunner 1,

 

Many thanks - more good info for the files. Sadly, it's usually the soldered suspension that shows in the on-line photos, and not the ring!

 

The other vic I thought was Type 1 is much darker than the 'guaranteed' one, and is smooth and shiny - much more like the one I posted above. It also has the soldered barrel, but the ring is the same as the one above. It's just in better condition - see the pics below. It raises the question of how they get to be that dark brown colour. I have a Type 2 which has lost the gilding, and it's a dull gray-bronze colour. The real deal Type 1 is matt and more milk chocolate colour.

 

 

 

Bill

 

 

[Gunner 1]

Bilco:  Two things to note about the VM you illustrate in the post above:

1. The obverse appears much darker has less detail than the reverse.

2. The high spots on the reverse (letters in the wording and berries on the wreath) and on a portion of the rear of the suspension are bright gilt.

This makes me think that the medal is a Type II VM that has been subjected to fire or some type of chemical or has been buried in the ground for some time.

Gunner 1

Edited April 21, 2015 by Gunner 1

[Bilco]

Many thanks Gunner 1 - I'll look at giving them both a clean and see what comes up.

 

Bill

[Bilco]

Hi Gents,

The Great War Forum has a post concerning (very) late issue of the British vic and War Medal  http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=216669&page=4  post # 78.

It appears that the vic is a brand new striking - another variety to add to the list - Official Type 3 or Reissue Type 1???

 

Bill

 

Edited May 29, 2015 by Bilco
Wrong web site attribution

[Gunner 1]

The reissued VM and BWM illustrated in the post you cite on the Great War Forum are as poorly designed as many of the so-called 'replacement' medals for sale on eBay!  I wonder who supplies them to the MoD?

[Gunner 1]

I should have mentioned in my last post that if any of you are attending the Orders and Medals Society of America Convention in Atlanta in August I am giving a seminar talk on the Great War British Victory Medal which will discuss all aspects of the two (or is now three) types and statistical information on the numbers awarded based on an analysis of the newly released Great War medal rolls on Ancestry.   Gunner 1

[Bilco]

The reissued VM and BWM illustrated in the post you cite on the Great War Forum are as poorly designed as many of the so-called 'replacement' medals for sale on eBay!  I wonder who supplies them to the MoD?

​Yes, I've just had a quick look on eBay, and there are several that look very similar to the photos posted on my link. Some sellers talk of an 'MoD-approved supplier' who makes the medals they sell - it would be interesting to find out who this is.

 

 

I should have mentioned in my last post that if any of you are attending the Orders and Medals Society of America Convention in Atlanta in August I am giving a seminar talk on the Great War British Victory Medal which will discuss all aspects of the two (or is now three) types and statistical information on the numbers awarded based on an analysis of the newly released Great War medal rolls on Ancestry.   Gunner 1

​

Will you be publishing the text of your talk at the Atlanta Convention?

 

Bill

[Bilco]

Hi Gents,

 

There's a suggestion on the GWF that the supplier is Worcester Medal Service - their web site shows the vic they sell   http://www.worcmedals.com/shop.php?sec=prod&prod=564&product=victory-medal-copy

 

Apparently, their associated firm of Gladman & Norman was one of the official producers of the Diamond Jubilee Medal.

 

Bill

[lambert]

It seems strange after more than 90 years reissue of the British MV merely for commercial purposes.

Best

Lambert

[Gunner 1]

Bill wrote: "Will you be publishing the text of your talk at the Atlanta Convention?"

Bill:  Some portions of my talk have already been published in two articles in the OMRS Journal. I will probably publish the new material in that journal or in JOMSA.

Regards, Gunner 1

[Bilco]

Hi Lambert,

 

There has been a long topic on this subject on the Great War Forum. The MoD medals web site says that replacement WW1 medals will not be supplied  https://www.gov.uk/the-ministry-of-defence-medal-office    

However, the lady who has been successful was able to get them because the originals were returned to the Government - as the soldier in question was dead it's assumed it was his mother who returned them because the rank shown on the medal was wrong. I can sympathise with that, as my mother always said that her father's Commonwealth War Graves Commission gravestone had the wrong rank, and she couldn't get it changed.

It appears that, notwithstanding the statement on the MoD web site, in the case of returned medals they can be claimed. As the originals would have been destroyed after 10 years new ones had to be sourced from a commercial medal supplier that the MoD has used for other medals.

The GWF thread is here http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=216669&page=1

 

Bill

[Bilco]

Bill:  Some portions of my talk have already been published in two articles in the OMRS Journal. I will probably publish the new material in that journal or in JOMSA.

Many thanks Dick. I have the article that appeared in the September 2009 OMRS Journal, and you posted here about the Type 1R - is that the subject of the second article you mention?

I'll look out for the new material.

 

 

Bill

 

​

[lambert]

Links very interesting and enlightening.

Thank Bill

Lambert

[RobW]

Hi Gents,

The Great War Forum has a post concerning (very) late issue of the British vic and War Medal  http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=216669&page=4  post # 78.

It appears that the vic is a brand new striking - another variety to add to the list - Official Type 3 or Reissue Type 1???

 

Bill

​Hi Bill,

I have in my collection a late issue (never originally claimed) from February 1948, a reissue (medals returned due to naming error) from 1949, and a duplicate reissue (originals lost to Japanese during WW2) from 1950. In all these cases the medals were of a later striking that have minor production differences to the earlier 1920-1930's issues but were clearly from the same dies.

I would probably characterise this example as a reissue. Given the MOD's response that they don't reissue the Great War medals unless they were returned, it is unlikely that they had any remaining stocks of the medals, or possibly even the dies, from the original 1920-1930's production timeframe. It would then make sense for the MOD to have to go to an 'approved' medal manufacturer to fulfill any such claims. In that regard these examples would be still be classed as reissues as the original had been returned.

I would suggest that there would be very few of these 'reissues' given that passage of time. If they have come from the MOD then they are at least official in that sense.

Regards,
Rob

[Bilco]

Many thanks Rob. At least there are decent ribbons on these 'reissued'medals. The Worcester Medal Service web site shows modern ribbon on their copies.

The thread on GWF today shows the naming, although the photos are rather blurred, and the general opinion is that the naming looks to be impressed.

Bill

[Jerry B]

I picked up a nearly mint in box example recently, along with his BWM.  They had the the wrong ribbons on from each other, which I have since replaced correctly, though I have not polished the tarnish off the BWM.

[RobW]

I picked up a nearly mint in box example recently, along with his BWM.  They had the the wrong ribbons on from each other, which I have since replaced correctly, though I have not polished the tarnish off the BWM

 

 

Hi Jerry,

You have certainly picked up a nice pair. I wouldn't touch the BWM at all as the nice patina that has developed is as a result of the medal being silver. It is this patina which makes the item look particularly nice. Removing the patina by polishing would reduce the value of the medal and pair considerably.

Regards,
Rob

[Jerry B]

Hi Jerry,

You have certainly picked up a nice pair. I wouldn't touch the BWM at all as the nice patina that has developed is as a result of the medal being silver. It is this patina which makes the item look particularly nice. Removing the patina by polishing would reduce the value of the medal and pair considerably.

Regards,
Rob

Indeed Rob and I will not polish it, as I not polished my others in a similar condition.

[RobW]

Hi Jerry,

This group to a Naik of the 1-26 Punjabis Regiment shows a good level of toning and patina on the two silver medals.

Complete groups to Indian recipients, with the silver medals, are becoming difficult to find. I always find those medals with a deep patina to be more interesting than those that have been polished.

Regards,

Rob

[Jerry B]

Hi Jerry,

This group to a Naik of the 1-26 Punjabis Regiment shows a good level of toning and patina on the two silver medals.

Complete groups to Indian recipients, with the silver medals, are becoming difficult to find. I always find those medals with a deep patina to be more interesting than those that have been polished.

Regards,

Rob

 

Looks good Rob.  I polished a cap badge once, never again.

 

I have quite a few BWM's that came to me tarnished and I have left them that way, I also have some that are so shiney you need shades to look at them, though that is how they would have been when issued.  I think a lot of old school collectors were big on polishing and adding new ribbons but I am always trying to fond original ribbon for any of mine with the modern stuff on them, I picked up two short lengths of Mons Star ribbon and one of BWM ribbon on the weekend.

I cannot decide if this vm is a chocolate type or just very worn and patinated, what do you think?