Croix de Guerre

[Chris Liontas]

Does anyone know the award criteria for the Croix de Guerre for US military personel in WWI? I now they were awarded during the war, but why were they awarded in the 20's to US servicemen? I have a copy of a document to Arthur Schaap who seems to be awarded the medal in 1928. Were they awarded via brigade for action during the war?

[Chris Boonzaier]

Does anyone know the award criteria for the Croix de Guerre for US military personel in WWI? I now they were awarded during the war, but why were they awarded in the 20's to US servicemen? I have a copy of a document to Arthur Schaap who seems to be awarded the medal in 1928. Were they awarded via brigade for action during the war?

Hi,

if you got a citation, you were entitled to the medal. It may be that someone was cited in 1918 and only realised it in 1928?

[Chris Liontas]

Hi,

if you got a citation, you were entitled to the medal. It may be that someone was cited in 1918 and only realised it in 1928?

Hi Chris!

Could be, I will scan the document. Arthur Schaap appears in the lists of the 126th Infantry regiment's history, but there is no mention there or in the 32nd Division's history of him recieving the medal. However, he was wounded during Soissons to the extent he did not return to the 126th Infantry (I am getting his AGO card, but I believe by machine gun fire). I am not sure if he was mentioned in dispatches, then never realized it, or if it was awarded for some other event? I am not sure.

[speagle]

This may help clarify for you:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croix_de_guerre#United_States_issuance

There is a specific section titled; "United States issuance"

[hzenba2012]

Hello! Very sorry entering in on this topic without any knowledge! May I ask specifically about this medal? This is from France, is it? America issued this medal or is it French? I know or seen this medal at Belgium also. Seems very complicated story this medal has.

[Doc]

Hello! Very sorry entering in on this topic without any knowledge! May I ask specifically about this medal? This is from France, is it? America issued this medal or is it French? I know or seen this medal at Belgium also. Seems very complicated story this medal has.

Yes, this discussion seems to be about the French medal. It was not issued by the United States, though some U.S. Soldiers were awarded it by the French. There is another decoration with the same name from Belgium-- not at all the same medal.

[dmiller8]

During WW1, Black soldiers of the American Expeditionary Force were grouped in two divisions (92nd and 93rd) and fought under operational control of the French High Command. Most awards for bravery to these soldiers were in the form of the Croix de Guerre, such as to LTC Otis Duncan, the highest-ranked Black Soldier in the AEF (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otis_B._Duncan). The 369th Sustainment Brigade is the lineal descendant of the 369th Infantry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harlem_Hellfighters) and has the right to display the Croix de Guerre as a unit citation; its members wear a fourragere in the green/red colors of that medal while assigned to the unit.

[W McSwiggan]

This medal and the equivalent from Belgium were issued by the military of those respective nations.

They were similar is use and method of award of appurtinances - i.e., bronze, silver, gold stars and palms as a function of citing headquarters.

US service members and US citizens serving in the armed forces of France & Belgium were frequently recipients of these awards.

The involvement of the US military/government was not issuance but authorization to accept and wear. Without permission - a US service member is not allowed to wear foreign decorations.

A rather simple procedure is in effect to gain authorization - request in writing through the chain of command and provide proof of award (Documentation such as orders).

Approval of this action entitles the US service member to wear the award.

Hence, the US does not issue, it approves wear.

[hzenba2012]

Hello! I just wanted to understand more about this medal. It's French and during WW1. At this time US entered war so you can make proposal to Mexican government for military alliance. And so black people? men & women perhaps went on to France after their liberation. Over there French military officers were made General in the American forces. But the real reason may be that US loaned money to France and Great Britain. I think I know nothing about the medal with these, but US army must have done exceptionally well against Germans and Russians. Belgium medal is/was entirely different, so it is...

[W McSwiggan]

Let me try to explain what I can for you.

1. Connection to the Mexican government that you tried to make is a total mystery to me.
   
2. The American slaves were liberated as a result of the American Civil War a half century before the First World War.
   
3. Although freed, people of color still faced prejudice and segregation. Segregation extended to the Army as well where units not racially mixed.
   
4. When American forces deployed to Europe, they were not always placed as subordinates to higher American headquarters. American Divisions were placed under French Corps and Armies. The French generals who commanded these Corps and Armies remained generals in their own army. They commanded their subordinate formations with full authority without regard to their country of origin.
   
5. Therefore, if a soldier in an American Regiment or Division that had been attached to a French Corps performed a noteworthy act – his act could easily be recognized by a French award. Often, recognition could be forthcoming from the French faster than the Americans. For such a soldier – his award would move up to the French commander as the most direct communications chain (Division to Corps for approval) as opposed to all the way up the chain then over to the highest American headquarters for approval.
   
6. Post war American documents could have simply an issue of soldiers and former soldiers applying for and receiving authority to wear foreign awards.
   
7. As an additional note, many American airmen served in the French air force prior to the American entry into the hostilities. They first joined the French Foreign Legion (to protect their citizenship) and then were assigned to the French air service. These persons would solely subject to French awards unless they later transferred to the American forces after America entered the fray. Some did transfer and some stayed with the French for the duration.
   
8. I do not see any linkage between the award of French medals to American citizens and monetary loans from government to government.
   

I hope this clears up some of the confusion for you.

Hello! I just wanted to understand more about this medal. It's French and during WW1. At this time US entered war so you can make proposal to Mexican government for military alliance. And so black people? men & women perhaps went on to France after their liberation. Over there French military officers were made General in the American forces. But the real reason may be that US loaned money to France and Great Britain. I think I know nothing about the medal with these, but US army must have done exceptionally well against Germans and Russians. Belgium medal is/was entirely different, so it is...

[hzenba2012]

Hello! My interpretation of this French and Belgian cross asreligious context? for military cross defined by symbol of four fish tails. Therefore valour and rescue image both in civilian life and in the military where it is often the basis of a campaign cross. The fish symbol in early Christian has been used as Hospitaller Cross and Crusader Cross. Nowadays for military association it was the emblem of the Knights of St. John, the eight chivalric obligations or aspirations which are self sacrifice, charity for the poor and the sick, respect for the church, etc.

[lambert]

During WW1, Black soldiers of the American Expeditionary Force were grouped in two divisions (92nd and 93rd) and fought under operational control of the French High Command. Most awards for bravery to these soldiers were in the form of the Croix de Guerre, such as to LTC Otis Duncan, the highest-ranked Black Soldier in the AEF (http://en.wikipedia..../Otis_B._Duncan). The 369th Sustainment Brigade is the lineal descendant of the 369th Infantry (http://en.wikipedia....em_Hellfighters) and has the right to display the Croix de Guerre as a unit citation; its members wear a fourragere in the green/red colors of that medal while assigned to the unit.

Hi All

I have a picture of it. Even in France in 1918.

Lambert

[lambert]

This other, a veteran and his medals .. !

Lambert

[W McSwiggan]

Hello! My interpretation of this French and Belgian cross asreligious context? for military cross defined by symbol of four fish tails. Therefore valour and rescue image both in civilian life and in the military where it is often the basis of a campaign cross. The fish symbol in early Christian has been used as Hospitaller Cross and Crusader Cross. Nowadays for military association it was the emblem of the Knights of St. John, the eight chivalric obligations or aspirations which are self sacrifice, charity for the poor and the sick, respect for the church, etc.

Sir - your posts continue to confuse me!

If you have an agenda - I guess it needs to be directly stated for the likes of me because I fail to grasp your point.

These decorations are crosses for war - meaning a reward for services rendered during war time to forward the military cause of Belgium & France. As stated they were related to the level of military headquarters citing the soldier. The medal is a cross with swords bisecting the arms. The cross is a Christian symbol - yes - but it is an exceedingly common motif for military orders and decorations for nominally Christian nations. There is no connection between this award and political positions, acts of charity or religious affiliations. It is simply a medal bestowed on personnel serving during war in a manner meriting recognition.

To me the intent and circumstances of the award have been clearly explained to include bestowal on foreign nationals.

How you have moved from the explanations made to religious context, and other components of your post is beyond me.

If someone can explain this to me - or to hzenba2012 for that matter - please jump in - I am completely at a loss!

[dmiller8]

Hello! My interpretation of this French and Belgian cross asreligious context? for military cross defined by symbol of four fish tails. Therefore valour and rescue image both in civilian life and in the military where it is often the basis of a campaign cross. The fish symbol in early Christian has been used as Hospitaller Cross and Crusader Cross. Nowadays for military association it was the emblem of the Knights of St. John, the eight chivalric obligations or aspirations which are self sacrifice, charity for the poor and the sick, respect for the church, etc.

With respect to the above post, this might be a perfect example of "machine translation". The machine takes the original text of a foreign language and fixes it into English without regards to changes in the words' context or rules of grammar. I interpret the paragraph above to ask if there is a correlation between the badges of ancient crusading orders of knighthood and relatively modern military decorations.This is my theory of cross-shaped awards. Insignia shaped like a cross were often used as badges of knighthood, beginning in the time of the Crusades. As knighthoods came to be used as awards for military merit, they assumed a new importance, so much that only high-ranking officers could receive a cross-shaped award. The idea that the lower ranks may be awarded cross-shaped badges may have arisen with the Imperial Russian Cross of St. George (http://en.wikipedia....of_Saint_George ), established in 1807 to recognized heroism of junior enlisted men; it hung from the same colored ribbon as the Order of St. George given to successful officers. The Prussian Iron Cross in 1813, evoked an association with the insignia of the Teutonic Knights ( http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Iron_Cross ) since both featured a black cross with the silver rim. The first and second classes of Iron Cross were awarded to all eligible soldiers, not just officers. The Croix de Guerre awards of France and Belgium had their origins in the need to recognize acts of heroism not justifying a Legion of Honor or a Royal Belgian knighthood, but because of the association of crosses with high-level honors, cross-shaped awards made it possible for the soldier to feel closer to those heroes of past wars who were knighted in the field. Edited June 29, 2012 by dmiller8

[W McSwiggan]

With respect to the above post, this might be a perfect example of "machine translation". The machine takes the original text of a foreign language and fixes it into English without regards to changes in the words' context or rules of grammar. I interpret the paragraph above to ask if there is a correlation between the badges of ancient crusading orders of knighthood and relatively modern military decorations.This is my theory of cross-shaped awards. Insignia shaped like a cross were often used as badges of knighthood, beginning in the time of the Crusades. As knighthoods came to be used as awards for military merit, they assumed a new importance, so much that only high-ranking officers could receive a cross-shaped award. The idea that the lower ranks may be awarded cross-shaped badges may have arisen with the Imperial Russian Cross of St. George (http://en.wikipedia....of_Saint_George ), established in 1807 to recognized heroism of junior enlisted men; it hung from the same colored ribbon as the Order of St. George given to successful officers. The Prussian Iron Cross in 1813, evoked an association with the insignia of the Teutonic Knights ( http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Iron_Cross ) since both featured a black cross with the silver rim. The first and second classes of Iron Cross were awarded to all eligible soldiers, not just officers. The Croix de Guerre awards of France and Belgium had their origins in the need to recognize acts of heroism not justifying a Legion of Honor or a Royal Belgian knighthood, but because of the association of crosses with high-level honors, cross-shaped awards made it possible for the soldier to feel closer to those heroes of past wars who were knighted in the field.

A very reasonable response - thank you! My frustration was growing trying to provide insight to increasingly disjointed posts. I think you have both hit the proverbial nail squarely and provided the sought after answer to the question posed! I admire your mental flexibility which clearly exceeds mine!