Serbia Serbia - Order of St Sava, 4th Class

[drclaw]

This arrived in the mail yesterday, Serbia Order of St Sava, 4th Class, from Elite Militaria based in Queensland, Australia. I've posted the ebay pictures as they are far better than anything I can take with my muppet camera skills.

What was more interesting was that it came with an old calling card of the original recipient:

BOJIDAR POURITCH

Envoye Extraordinaire et Ministre Plenipotentiaire de R.M. le Roi de Yougeslavie

1.Boulevard Delessert 16e

I've been researching him over the internet and he was Charge to the US during the 1920s, where he signed a Conciliation Treaty with the US. The US signatory was Frank Kellogg, of the famous 1928 Kellogg-Briand Pact that prohibited war 'as an instrument of national policy' except in matters of self-defence.

In November 1926, he was engaged as "Count Bojidar Pouritch" to marry a Chicago heiress. The engagement was broken off two weeks later on the grounds that he was "not of noble blood"!

In the late 1930s, he was Yugoslav delegate to the League of Nations, and Yugoslav Minister based in Paris. He lived at the Boulevard Delessert, which is just across the Seine from the Eiffel Tower near the Pont d'Iena, from 1936 until 1940, when he fled Paris with the fall of France (and Yugoslavia).

He pushed for a Pact between the Little Entente (Czechoslovakia, Romania, Yugoslavia) and France to counter Nazi aggression against Czechoslovakia. This failed under Britain and France's policy of appeasement.

He resided in the UK during the Second World War as part of the Yugoslav Government in exile, and didn't return home after the war when Marshal Tito took control of Yugoslavia.

From US social security records, he moved to the US, was married, lived in Illinois with his wife, and died in Illinois in 1977. They had at least one daughter, who died in New York in 1998.

He passed away at the grand old age of 86 in Illinois as a US citizen.

What an interesting guy! Besides being engaged to a US Chicago heiress for 2 weeks, he was deeply emersed in international affairs in the 1920s and 1930s, and worked hard to counter the rise of Nazi Germany, only to be frustrated by France and Britain's policy of appeasement.

I've also come across his grand daughter who posted a photo of him on the web, wanting information on her grandfather. Will try and make contact with her as she is on Facebook.

Edited April 19, 2011 by drclaw

[drclaw]

And here's a photo of the dashing young man himself. Taken around the time he was engaged to the Chicago heiress!

Unfortunately, the original photograph has been sold or it would have made a perfect accompaniment to the order and calling card.

Edited April 19, 2011 by drclaw

[Markus]

Gavin,

I throughly enjoyed this thread and looking at your mint St. Sava. It is amazing how many historic details you were able to dig up on this medals owner. A very nice addition to your growing collection of world medals! This Serbian maker produced a very high quality medal. Also I don't see many of this maker on the market, usually they are Huguenin Freres (swiss) or Arthus Bertrand (french) maker.

Markus

Edited April 19, 2011 by Markus

[Markus]

Here is a link with all of the different types of St. Sava's displayed. Incredible eye candy!

My link

Markus

[drclaw]

Great link, Markus. INCREDIBLE eye candy!

These certainly rank in the Top 10 list of the most beautiful and well crafted Orders of all time.

[Dr.L.]

Hello drclaw -- Thought you should know that I'm the one who purchased the original photo. Actually I had intended to bid on the medal as well but was away on business and too busy to bid (OK, I forgot all about it). In any case, I also have several documents pertaining to Pouritch. Originally I wanted to bid because I had already had his info and was surprised to see the calling card. However, nowhere in my research can I find that Pouritch was awarded the 4th Class St Sava medal. It would seem logical that he might have been given the decoration since the medal was given for service to the Kingdom. And as you note in your initial posting, he certainly did serve his country well. But there is no real provenance linking this medal to the man, the card notwithstanding. And Elitemilitaria never really says that it is his medal, only that the medal is accompanied by the card. So there is it is...or isn't. Should you ever wish to sell this medal, do let me know. :beer:Cheers!

And here's a photo of the dashing young man himself. Taken around the time he was engaged to the Chicago heiress!

Unfortunately, the original photograph has been sold or it would have made a perfect accompaniment to the order and calling card.

[drclaw]

Thanks Dr.L

What a coincidence to find two folks on the forum who had chased after the same photo and the same order! Although I shouldn't be surprised.

You are quite right that in the absence of an actual award document or a record listing Pouritch's decorations (have you come across such a list?), what we have is a coincidence of factors (Pouritch's career, the original cardboard box, the card ... ) strongly suggesting ownership.

But is not rock solid proof so Fourth Class St Sava 'attributed to' Pouritch would probably be correct.

It's interesting how much documentary information was available on the chap on-line - everything from League of Nation records, modern photographs of his Parisian residence, 1920s Time magazines and of course the original treaties wih him as signatory.

Hahaha, I should say the same about the photo! Should you ever wish to sell it ....

But I will get in touch with his grand-daughter who was looking for information on her famous ancestor.

Cheers, Gavin

[Dr.L.]

Gavin -- I like your sense of humor..or should I say your sense for turnabout! I would hope that after you communicate with the grand-daughter that you will share with us what information that might be helpful, especially with regard to the medal. I will have our library here on campus continue the search for possible documentation as well. And sorry about the sign off, have to learn that as a restricted member, my two smiley faces with beer mugs only come out as the word "beer." Two of the documents that I have, lesser but original, are some of his day to day work. For some other selected documents I have facsimiles. Though I have been buying, selling and collecting medals and medallions for quite some time, my "meeting" Pouritch was a happy accident in researching Alexander I's assassination (with one thing and person leading to another). Good luck with your further research. I will let you know if we come across anything here as well. Later. --- Tom

Thanks Dr.L

What a coincidence to find two folks on the forum who had chased after the same photo and the same order! Although I shouldn't be surprised.

You are quite right that in the absence of an actual award document or a record listing Pouritch's decorations (have you come across such a list?), what we have is a coincidence of factors (Pouritch's career, the original cardboard box, the card ... ) strongly suggesting ownership.

But is not rock solid proof so Fourth Class St Sava 'attributed to' Pouritch would probably be correct.

It's interesting how much documentary information was available on the chap on-line - everything from League of Nation records, modern photographs of his Parisian residence, 1920s Time magazines and of course the original treaties wih him as signatory.

Hahaha, I should say the same about the photo! Should you ever wish to sell it ....

But I will get in touch with his grand-daughter who was looking for information on her famous ancestor.

Cheers, Gavin

[drclaw]

Thanks Tom, that's much appreciated.

I'll let you know how my contact with the grand daughter goes. I have both a Facebook and an email address.

Would be particularly interested to learn of the life after his move to the United States. The only information I have managed to glean from the interent are his US Social Security death records. It would appear that he and his wife lived a long (and hopefully happy) life together before both passing away in Illinois.

1. Bojidar POURITCH - U.S. Social Security Death Index

Birth: 19 Feb 1891 State Where Number was Issued: Illinois Death: Oct 1977

2. Dara POURITCH - U.S. Social Security Death Index

Birth: 4 Apr 1896 State Where Number was Issued: Illinois Death: Jan 1981

3. Douchan POURITCH - U.S. Social Security Death Index

Birth: 4 Jan 1929 State Where Number was Issued: New York Death: 28 Feb 1998

All the best and will be in touch again.

Gavin

[Dr.L.]

Hello Gavin -- Well, making some headway on the search, but I don't think you'll like what I have so far. I'll start with the OK stuff first. The medal you purchased from Eiltemilitaria was sold on Ebay France on March 10 of this year. It sold for 251,01 Euros (forgot to convert the Euros so that will be for you to do). I know it's the same medal because it has the wrapper and the calling card with all the same "wrinkles."

The second thing is that also in France in another non-Ebay auction a medal, the Yugoslavian Order of the Royal Crown, Commanders Cross had Pouritch's name in the description and a card as well. Here is the kicker: when translated the description says the medal was given to disabled individuals who were injured in 1917-18 in Serbia, by King Peter II. The person PRESENTING the medals was, yep, you got it...Pourtich. So it would seem that our man was probably not the recipient of the medal you have, but rather the presenter, thus the calling card versus award documents for Pouritch.

We are still researching at the college. It was funny, one of our library staff found a website discussing the medal and Pouritch....it was this site! In any case, we'll see what more we can find, but thought you should know. The medal and card are still very important. Who knows, maybe we will confirm it's his after all.

Very best,

Tom

Thanks Tom, that's much appreciated.

I'll let you know how my contact with the grand daughter goes. I have both a Facebook and an email address.

Would be particularly interested to learn of the life after his move to the United States. The only information I have managed to glean from the interent are his US Social Security death records. It would appear that he and his wife lived a long (and hopefully happy) life together before both passing away in Illinois.

1. Bojidar POURITCH - U.S. Social Security Death Index

Birth: 19 Feb 1891 State Where Number was Issued: Illinois Death: Oct 1977

2. Dara POURITCH - U.S. Social Security Death Index

Birth: 4 Apr 1896 State Where Number was Issued: Illinois Death: Jan 1981

3. Douchan POURITCH - U.S. Social Security Death Index

Birth: 4 Jan 1929 State Where Number was Issued: New York Death: 28 Feb 1998

All the best and will be in touch again.

Gavin

[drclaw]

Thanks for this Tom. It sure is looking more and more mysterious.

One thing I'm a little confused about is the second non-ebay sale comprising the Yugoslav Crown Commanders' Cross.

Did the description say Pouritch was presenting a Yugoslav Crown Commanders' to the disabled veterans, or that Pouritch was presenting a St Sava Commanders? If the former, than there is no evidence that he was also presenting St Sava Commanders, or that the French ebay St Sava was presented by Pouritch.

Unless of course the calling card between French ebay St Sava and the Yugoslav Crown was the same (same creases, etc). If so, this would suggest they were swapped between the two items.

Gavin

Edited April 28, 2011 by drclaw

[Dr.L.]

Hi Gavin -- To clarify, yes, it was the Crown medal that he presented to the injured soldiers. The logic here is that if he was in the position to present medals, the St Sava medal would also be among those he would present. As for the French medal, we have looked at both ((photos) and we all agree that it was/is the same medal and card for the St Sava. I think more to the point, in addition to all of the offices he held for the kingdom, there is no record of any medal being received by him. There is always the possibility that the card was swapped, but why for the same medal? I could see maybe swapping between the 4th class and say the grand cross, to imply a higher award, But why swap between two medals of the same rank? I agree this is more complex than expected. We are looking in three other cities here in the U.S. for information and several national and international organizations. If this guy really got a medal we should be able to find it. Even at the 4th level, being the high visibility figure that he was, there must be some confirmation. Of course the lack of it would prove otherwise. I'll keep you posted. --- Tom

Thanks for this Tom. It sure is looking more and more mysterious.

One thing I'm a little confused about is the second non-ebay sale comprising the Yugoslav Crown Commanders' Cross.

Did the description say Pouritch was presenting a Yugoslav Crown Commanders' to the disabled veterans, or that Pouritch was presenting a St Sava Commanders? If the former, than there is no evidence that he was also presenting St Sava Commanders, or that the French ebay St Sava was presented by Pouritch.

Unless of course the calling card between French ebay St Sava and the Yugoslav Crown was the same (same creases, etc). If so, this would suggest they were swapped between the two items.

Gavin

[Dr.L.]

Hello Gavin -- Thought I should let you know about our latest information. We have contacted and spoken with both the Serbian Consulate and the Serbian Embassy. The Consul and an official from the embassy have confirmed that Bojidar Pouritch did NOT receive the the Order of St Sava 4th class, nor any other award that would be stated in his file. We did get considerable other pieces of information for the research that we are conducting, but I thought you should know. Rather disappointing. --- Tom

Thanks for this Tom. It sure is looking more and more mysterious.

One thing I'm a little confused about is the second non-ebay sale comprising the Yugoslav Crown Commanders' Cross.

Did the description say Pouritch was presenting a Yugoslav Crown Commanders' to the disabled veterans, or that Pouritch was presenting a St Sava Commanders? If the former, than there is no evidence that he was also presenting St Sava Commanders, or that the French ebay St Sava was presented by Pouritch.

Unless of course the calling card between French ebay St Sava and the Yugoslav Crown was the same (same creases, etc). If so, this would suggest they were swapped between the two items.

Gavin

[drclaw]

Thanks for this Tom. I contacted his grand daughter, Petal DeVries, on both Facebook and email but did not receive a reply. The details she provided were from a website in 2007 and might no longer current. And her Facebook account might be inactive.

I consulted my copy of Peter Duckers, 'European Orders and Decorations to 1945', which notes that the Order of St Sava was awarded for art, science, literature, religion or social work. The Order of Karageorge Star was awarded for military or civil service. The Order of Takova was primarily an award for military merit. And the Order of the Crown was awarded for civil and military merit.

So it might be suggested that a St Sava would not have been awarded to French war veterans in the same way that the Karageorge, Takova or Crown might have. That said, it's possible that he might have been awarding it to French civilians.

Duckers also notes that some of Serbia's Orders - the Orders of Karageorge, White Eagle and St Sava - remained in use in Yugoslavia 'in its early years'. Whether this extended to the late 1930s when Bojidar was Minister in Paris, is unclear. However, he also states that the St Sava (and the Yugoslav Crown) continued to be awarded by the King Peter II in exile up to his death in 1970.

Tomislav Muhic and Pavel Car's book on 'Decorations and Badges of Serbia and Yugoslavia 1858-1941', might shed some more light on the awarding of these orders. Will try to pick up a copy.

I can't help but be very surprised that Pouritch did not receive a single Serbian / Yugoslav order in his professional career given his position as a senior member of the Yugoslav government and senior diplomatic representative. Having the national order of the country you were representing was, in those days, almost as much a part of your uniform as a business card I would have thought, particularly if you were a very senior diplomat. Perhaps the embassy files might not be entirely complete?

Was hoping that the grand daughter might shed some light about her grand father so it's a shame that I haven't been able to make contact. Was also hoping there might be a photograph of him in full dress with honours floating around somewhere. No photos of him on the League of Nations website unfortunately.

Certainly a fascinating mystery but I've exhausted all my leads at my end and all I can do is offer speculative theories and hypotheses.

I suspect the answer to the mystery, if it is to be found, lies in a dusty folder in Belgrade. But with war, revolution, the passage of time, and Bojidar's position as a member of the deposed and exiled regime, even that might be doubtful.

Gavin

[orden_master]

Hello Gavin, hello Tom

I was looking to this thread only by today and I was getting more and more curious about what will come up next as you continued the discussion.

First thing the order you bought is for sure not Mr. Puric's for more than one reason. First a accompanying calling card is a very good selling performer and often used by non 100% honest dealers. Of cours they will have the accompanying text not clearly state that the order and the card have belonged to the same person. So you will never have the slightes chance to treat them as liars.

Second the Sorlini production started in the late 1930ies so it would be very uncommon that he was awarded one of those production items.And to be more cruel it looks that the order you have more like a Hugunin production rather than Sorlini, the quality of the making is too good for Sorlini, the box for certain is OK.

Third (the most wondering) is the answer of the Embassy people, if the have a list to look after who received or not and what orders I would be the first one amongst many other people liking to have a look at that list. Why? because this list does not exist. There was only the official bureau of orders and decorations in Belgrade keeping track of thos informations and unfortunately all of those tracks and databases have been destroyed in a fire probably on the bombing of Belgrad during the WW II and since then all data has been lost. Except for some class I and II classes as they have been published also in newspapers or military bulletins and they have been stocked and archived in other places.

You did a perfect research on orders and persons but unfortunately (and I am sorry for that) you will not manage to correctly tie those things togheter as they do not belong togheter.

For more pictures on Serbian orders look at my website.

If I could help any further please let me know or PM me.

Best regards from Switzerland

Milan

Hello Gavin -- Thought I should let you know about our latest information. We have contacted and spoken with both the Serbian Consulate and the Serbian Embassy. The Consul and an official from the embassy have confirmed that Bojidar Pouritch did NOT receive the the Order of St Sava 4th class, nor any other award that would be stated in his file. We did get considerable other pieces of information for the research that we are conducting, but I thought you should know. Rather disappointing. --- Tom

[khorgor]

Hi Gavin,

Just wanted to say that even with all the bad news, you still have purchased a beautiful medal.

and even if the medal did not belong to your man, I just wanted to welcome you properly to the world of researching.

Just think what it will be like when you get a proper match it. It shall be a glorious achievement.

Enjoy your medal and good luck for the future

[drclaw]

Thanks Milan, Tom and Khorgor,

It has certainly been an absolutely fascinating journey. I think the date of manufacture of the Sorlini St Savas is the clincher and we can bring this thread to a close.

Pouritch would certainly not have been awarded a relatively low grade (4th Class) in the 1930s given his rank and past experience. So this would fit nicely with Tom's theory that it was most likely Pouritch who was awarding the St Sava during his time as Minister in Paris as opposed to Pouritch being the owner.

I have to say that any sense of disappointment I might feel at the end result is insignificant compared to the enjoyment of the journey over the last few weeks - learning the life story of a fascinating individual; and sharing the journey with fellow Gentlemen whilst enjoying their insights and expertise.

Tom - I wish you the very best for your ongoing research and hope you might be able to share some of it one day

Milan - I've spent plenty of time on your website gazing at all those glorious St Savas and White Eagles. Hope to add a White Eagle to my collection soon.

Gavin :beer:

Edited May 17, 2011 by drclaw

[lambert]

Hello Gavin.

Your collection is magnificent! I'm impressed!

My congratulations!

All the Best

Lambert

[drclaw]

Thanks Lambert, and the same applies to you and your fantastic website!

Please keep posting on your medals blog!

Gavin

[Dr.L.]

Hello All -- I was interested to read some of the more recent comments sent by our colleagues in the Club. Wanted to give you all an up-date on our continuing research. But first I wanted to comment or rather clarify something. Milan wrote about lists of individuals having received orders and medals, and rightly speaks of the limited availability of such lists. The clarification is that in checking on Mr. Pouritch, no such list was used to try and identify him as a recipient. Rather both the Consul and the Embassy staff checked his "work file." We now continue to get a great deal of information on the man, but nothing attests to his receiving a medal of any kind. The up-date portion is that we have had communications with the Serbian government, with the aid of the Embassy. Their representatives could find nothing linking Pourtich to any medal except that on occasion he had presented them to others on behalf of the government. And to partially answer Gavin's concern about such a member of the diplomatic corps not receiving any recognition, the Serbian government suggests that with the upheaval of the time and the rapid change of administrations, Mr. Pouritch may have been overlooked. We know more about his education, his personal writing, and the like. So we here have come to know the man as well as the diplomat. That in itself has been most rewarding. My thanks to all for following the "chatter." Little did you know Gavin, that by purchasing this beautiful medal, how much interest and research you would inspire! Thanks! --- Tom

Thanks Lambert, and the same applies to you and your fantastic website!

Please keep posting on your medals blog!

Gavin

[drclaw]

Thanks Tom for sharing your latest research findings. This truly is a rewarding hobby regardless of the final outcome.

My only regret is that I have not been able to contact Bojidar's grand-daughter. She would have been able to share a very personal insight on the second half of Bojidar's life, after he began his new life in the United States.

Gavin

[Dr.L.]

Hello Gavin -- Hope all is well. Nothing new to report but I do have something I would like to share with you. We are clearing out several items in our collection in order to make room for new stuff. Among the Japanese war medals and George III medallions, we have decided to part with Bojidar's photo as well as a photo of the Yugoslavian Emabasy in Washington (taken ca. 1949). If you are still interested in the photo please let me know. Both items will be for sale soon but if interested I would be happy to deal with you directly.

Tom

Thanks Tom for sharing your latest research findings. This truly is a rewarding hobby regardless of the final outcome.

My only regret is that I have not been able to contact Bojidar's grand-daughter. She would have been able to share a very personal insight on the second half of Bojidar's life, after he began his new life in the United States.

Gavin

[drclaw]

Hello Tom, thanks very much for the offer to purchase the photographs.

I think I will pass on the photo as the only connection I have to Bojidar is the calling card that came with the St Sava. So there's nothing really of historical significance that I need to unite with the photo.

It was a rewarding research project on my part though and I did think of purchasing the photo as a memento.

All the best, Gavin

[Dr.L.]

Hello Gavin -- No problem. Do let us all know if you get through to Bojidar's family. I will certainly post any new info for you and the others as it comes in. Take care. --- Tom

Hello Tom, thanks very much for the offer to purchase the photographs.

I think I will pass on the photo as the only connection I have to Bojidar is the calling card that came with the St Sava. So there's nothing really of historical significance that I need to unite with the photo.

It was a rewarding research project on my part though and I did think of purchasing the photo as a memento.

All the best, Gavin