American (US) Victory Medals

[Kev in Deva]

As we start out, we can use this thread for U.S. Victory Medals, award documents, variations in medals/ribbons/clasp, etc.

Though

I do plan on starting a separate section on clasps eventually, to

include variations, I think there is no problem discussing clasps and

other attachments here.

Tim

My American Victory Medal with "France" Bar.

http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_07_2009/post-950-1247584101.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_07_2009/post-950-1247584111.jpg

Kevin in Deva.

Edited February 27, 2013 by IrishGunner

[Tim B]

And of course, the U.S. I have more, some with the issue boxes, and one that has a re-issue bar included with other original issue bars. Just haven't photographed everything at this point. I'll have to dig.
Tim

Edited February 24, 2013 by IrishGunner

[Tim B]

I meant to add the following to the above PIC: The medals (L to R) are for the US 1st Division; 28th Division; and 77th Division; and one with just the France bar.

Had some time to take a few more PICS; still have more to follow.

Here's another US Victory Medal; this one probably to the US 4th Division. Look carefully at the number of campaign bars and you'll note the front shows four bars, while the reverse only shows three.

This is one with a re-issue bar attached, something you don't see very often, but Laslo discusses these in his book as well.

Tim

Edited September 1, 2009 by Tim B

[Tim B]

These reissue bars have the pin type mounts as shown in the red circle.

[RobW]

Here's another US Victory Medal; this one probably to the US 4th Division. Look carefully at the number of campaign bars and you'll note the front shows four bars, while the reverse only shows three.

This is one with a re-issue bar attached, something you don't see very often, but Laslo discusses these in his book as well.

Tim

Great pictures Tim,

I also have a U.S. vic with a re-issue CHAMPAGNE-MARNE bar attached. It is more of a shiny bronze finish and looks out of place with the other darker bronze coloured bars. Once I track it down I shall post pics.

Regards,

Rob

[Tim B]

Another US; a "plain-Jane" with no ribbon attachments, but still a decent strike.

Tim

[Tim B]

My first US WW1 Victory Medal; purchased from a local Army/Navy surplus store back in the mid-60's.

Note the attachment pin style. One thing I never noticed until recently was the two small pin holes on the ribbon, which leads me to believe it had one of those re-issue bars at some point.

Tim

[RobW]

Here is a French made reproduction of the U.S. vic.



Of note is that it is suspended by a ball instead of the barrel or thick
wire suspender of the official U.S. strikes. There are a number of
different French made repro's of the U.S. vic, listed as the type 1 and
type 1a in Mr Laslo's book.



This one is not listed in Mr Laslo's reference but has been mentioned in
a journal article of the OMSA. It differs from the others (repro type 1
and 1a) on the obverse by the wider face of victory, stronger rays that
lead to the rim, a much wider sword, different wing and feather detail,
and wider feet detail. On the reverse the lettering is considerably
wider and thicker than the other strikes.



This particular specimen has both the word 'BRONZE' as well as an unidentified triangle hallmark on the rim.



These French repro's are not often found.



Regards,

Rob

Edited February 24, 2013 by IrishGunner

[RobW]

And the required close-ups.

Regards,

Rob

[Thomas Symmonds]

Hello Gentlemen

My first real contribution to your thread and I thought I would start with my latest acquisition. I am partial to the miniature realm of medals, partly because they are cheaper than the full size medals, but mostly because I fine the detail sometimes quite brilliant.

My hope was to post the medal next to an item to show the relative size (I know we all know that minis are about 18mm, but it is sometimes helpfull to others, and I just like doing it that way too.) My first item was a coin (South African) and realised that that wouldn't help because most of you would not know what size they are anyway. So I reached for a paper clip, and four came away - all of different sizes! So I thought a match should work, I assume matches are pretty much the same size world wide - but I couldn't find one! Lighters plenty, but no matches. So....

the mini is 18mm in diameter. It is the U.S.A. version, and the detail is just exquisite. The ribbon is interesting too in that it has a very definite black edging. A burn test resulted in very fine powder and the blending of the colours is beautifully kaleidoscopic.

(close ups to follow - I know they are "close up" now, but wait to see the detail....)

[Thomas Symmonds]

... close ups

Those letters are less than a millimeter in width - stunning. The clasp seems to have been bent over and soldered - again, great attention to detail and finishing. Victory's nose though could have been better, perhaps we should not be looking too closley at a Lady's nose anyway.

regards

Thomas

[Tim B]

Hello Thomas!

Welcome to the discussion!!

Nice mini's and you're right, as her nose isn't much to talk about on the regular size pieces either!

Tim

[RobW]

Hello Thomas,

As Tim said - welcome back to the thread.

I too like the whole collecting field of miniatures. There are just so many varieties of the full-size vics and there are also quite a few corresponding varieties of mini's. Miniatures are a whole new area of vic collecting which is what makes it such fun. They pose more of a research dilemna as they are not generally named or attributed to an individual although I do have a small Great Britain group named to an individual on the reverse of the mounting bar.

The mini's of the U.S. and the Great Britain are generally seen in a consistent 18 mm diameter while other countries mini's are seen in a variety of diameters. I have 7 different Great Britain vic mini's and they are all different in strike, minor detail, and reverse lettering and all have been seen on different miniature groups. Some are more detailed than others. Other countries like Belgium, France, and Italy have mini vics in a range of sizes from 11 - 18 mm and they too are very finely detailed pieces.

It is my view that the standard of the contemporary miniature medal workmanship is far better than what is generally seen in modern pieces.

When I am back in Sydney in a couple of days I shall post some pics of a few different strikes of the U.S. vic mini's with a number of different Army engagement bars and Navy service bars for comparison.

Regards,

Rob

Edited October 20, 2009 by RobW

[Tim B]

Thomas,

Those minis are outstanding in detail!

Rob,

Is the clasp matrix listed in Laslo's 1st edition the same as the Donald Nixon matrix shown below?

Tim

[RobW]

Rob,

Is the clasp matrix listed in Laslo's 1st edition the same as the Donald Nixon matrix shown below?

Tim

Hello Tim,

No it is not the same but it's close. The clasp matrix is similar and lists the U.S. divisions along the top, with the clasp names on the right side, and approximate quantities involved on the left. It appears that it is a case of the same data just presented in a slightly different format.

When I'm conducting research on U.S. vics with engagement bars I generally refer to this table initially, as well as a larger compilation which is based on 'Battle Participation of Organizations of the American Expeditionary Forces in France, Belgium and Italy 1917-1918' by the U.S. War Office, 1920. This reference lists all the divisions and then identifies the engagement (battle) or service (country) bar (clasp) entitlements down to Regimental level and below if applicable. While the amended list is based on the original publication it has been updated with other information from other sources. It is a handy reference to just conduct a quick first line check to make sure that the medal in question is not a 'fantasy' award made up with clasps added by vendors.

I have a similar listing which is based off the official Navy lists and has been updated, from time to time, at the US Navy Historical Website, or at <http://www.history.navy.mil/medals/ww1vic.htm>

Hope this helps.

Regards,

Rob

Edited October 22, 2009 by RobW

[RobW]

Hello Thomas,

Here are a couple of U.S. vic mini's that I could quickly find that have both engagement and country clasps as well as one that has a Navy service clasp. I have others that do not have clasps but I can't locate them at the moment.

Aside from the centre two mini's you will notice that there are minute obverse differences between all the mini's and that should be expected.

Of note is some of the alternate spellings of the clasps with 'Montdidier-Noyon' spelt two different way depending on the manufacturer of the bars.

As I mentioned before I think a good collection of vic mini's will both highlight and complement any substantial vic collection.

Regards,

Rob

Edited October 22, 2009 by RobW

[Tim B]

Thanks Rob!

I had read somewhere that some of Nixon's numbers were off, so I was curious.

Tim

[RobW]

Thanks Rob!

I had read somewhere that some of Nixon's numbers were off, so I was curious.

Tim

Hello Tim,

When I have time this weekend I shall scan the table and post a pic here.

I am hopeful the Intellectual Property and Copyright gods won't complain too loudly about such a small excerpt from Mr Laslo's 23 year old first edition.

Regards,

Rob

Edited October 23, 2009 by RobW

[RobW]

Hello Tim,

As indicated here is the U.S. vic battle clasp matrix.

Regards,

Rob

Edited October 24, 2009 by RobW

[Guest Darrell]

Here's a few of my WW1 US Victory Medals:

[Tim B]

Rob,

Thanks for that matrix; something new to peruse over! Now, take a well-deserved break and maybe more will chime in. I certainly enjoyed your posts and thank you for the wealth of information and help along the way!

Oh BTW, nice Portugese Vic! I still need to get another one with the star as mine is without. Always "something else" to get!

Darrel,

Nice to see you and your medals again; I think that star is referred to as the "Mons" star on the WW1 British War Medal. They are not common and an item I am still waiting to add myself!

I like your American Vics as well, especially the 1st and 4th Div. pieces!

Tim

Edited October 25, 2009 by Tim B

[RobW]

So many people watching; so few people posting...

To all,

Here is are some pics of the not so regularly seen U.S. vic repro type 2 according to Mr Laslo's reference.

It is the repro that has 'Made In Italy' on the rim. There are very noticeable die variations on both the obverse and reverse compared to the official strikes as well as the French repro's, which are in themselves, also not seen that often.

Regards,

Rob

Edited November 25, 2009 by RobW

[johnnymac]

So many people watching; so few people posting...

To all,

Here is are some pics of the not so regularly seen U.S. vic repro type 2 according to Mr Laslo's reference.

It is the repro that has 'Made In Italy' on the rim. There are very noticeable die variations on both the obverse and reverse compared to the official strikes as well as the French repro's, which are in themselves, also not seen that often. I have one with, and one without, engagement and country clasps.

Regards,

Rob

Also to all,

This is also a French made VM, but it does not has a rim marked "made in France". I have several of this type VM, but only this one I just listed is without a rim stamp. I believe that the rim marked ones are because of the import / copy right rules of the 1920's. Also the two clasp bars listed with this medal are the usual suspect "type-set" most often found with this type medal.

JM

Edited November 24, 2009 by johnnymac

[johnnymac]

Also to all,

This is also a French made VM, but it does not has a rim marked "made in France". I have several of this type VM, but only this one I just listed is without a rim stamp. I believe that the rim marked ones are because of the import / copy right rules of the 1920's. Also the two bars listed the medal are the usual suspect "type-set" most often found with this type medal.

JM

Again to all

The top two clasps (SOMME, OFFENSIVE & SOMME, DEFFENSIVE) are the official issue to the VM, the bottom two are French made. Please note letter style of these two bars. Compare the very noticeable (type-set) differences between the two sets of letters "S", "M", "E", "F", "V" and "N".

Check the other differences, the "Star" size of both sets of clasp, and the half moons on the end on both sets of clasps.

JM

Edited November 24, 2009 by johnnymac

[johnnymac]

So many people watching; so few people posting...

To all,

Here is are some pics of the not so regularly seen U.S. vic repro type 2 according to Mr Laslo's reference.

It is the repro that has 'Made In Italy' on the rim. There are very noticeable die variations on both the obverse and reverse compared to the official strikes as well as the French repro's, which are in themselves, also not seen that often. I have one with, and one without, engagement and country clasps.

Regards,

Rob

Hi Rob, I added something to your posting. JM

all feed back welcomed