American (US) Victory Medals

[RobW]

Also to all,

This is also a French made VM, but it does not has a rim marked "made in France". I have several of this type VM, but only this one I just listed is without a rim stamp. I believe that the rim marked ones are because of the import / copy right rules of the 1920's.

JM

Hello JM,

Thanks for the post. It is nice to see that there are other vic collectors out there.

I have a few of the French produced U.S. vic reproductions and they have a variety of markings including:

* no edge markings.

* triangle hallmark and 'BRONZE' on the edge.

* square hallmark and 'BRONZE' on the edge.

* 'MADE IN FRANCE', large capitals, on the edge.

* 'MADE IN FRANCE', in very small capitals on the edge.

The medals with the first three markings were generally produced during the 1920s whereas those with the later 'MADE IN FRANCE' markings were known to have been produced in the 1930s to comply with the U.S. Tariff Law of 1931, in which the products had to have a marking displaying the country of origin. This is also dates the 'Made In Italy' repro to the same period.

Regards,

Rob

Edited November 25, 2009 by RobW

[RobW]

Again to all

The top two clasps (SOMME, OFFENSIVE & SOMME, DEFFENSIVE) are the official issue to the VM, the bottom two are French made. Please note letter style of these two bars. Compare the very noticeable (type-set) differences between the two sets of letters "S", "M", "E", "F", "V" and "N".

Check the other differences, the "Star" size of both sets of clasp, and the half moons on the end on both sets of clasps.

JM

JM,

I am aware of at least 4 different French manufacturers of reproduction official U.S. vic clasps as well as some unofficial clasps. All have smaller stars and backstraps of varying but generally thinner width. When I have the time I will dig some out and post pics.

As for the clasps with the larger stars; the only comment I have is that there is still some contention that they are indeed French made. All the collectors in France that I have spoken to, and in posts on a number of French forums, feel that they are of contemporary U.S. production from the 1980s. These clasps are regularly seen on U.S. vics with the modern nylon ribbon. If you could post pics of the reverse backstrap that would help.

It does bring to the forefront the issue that there is very little information out there on who produced the various different sets of engagement and country clasps for the U.S. vic.

Time will tell with more information always coming to light.

Happy to hear from other U.S. vic collectors who have an opinion!!

Regards,

Rob

[RobW]

Hello JM,

For comparison here is a French repro vic with some confirmed French produced clasps. This particular French repro has no edge markings on the rim of the medal.

Note that it is suspended by a French made ribbon and not the usual U.S. ribbon. The differences are apparent when you place them side by side. Although it is hidden the medal suspender is produced by the 'N.S. Meyer Inc' firm and is marked as such.

It has a combination of both reproductions of official clasps as well as an unofficial clasp. On the back of each clasp (not the backstrap), in small impressed capitals, is 'MADE IN FRANCE' making these of later in the 1930s vintage. As can be seen the backstraps are of a uniform narrow width.

I hope this is of use.

Due to impending work commitments I'll shortly be having a longer break. Let's see if others join the party.

Regards,

Rob

[Tim B]

Welcome to the discussion Johnny!

Lots of good information here and something that will really help those starting out collecting US Victory Medals as so many have the unnofficial clasps and the ones with the narrow backstraps. Okay if you know what they are, but not if being listed as 100% period authentic.

Hope we get more joining in with this level of discussion!

Tim

[johnnymac]

Hello JM,

For comparison here is a French repro vic with some confirmed French produced clasps. This particular French repro has no edge markings on the rim of the medal.

Note that it is suspended by a French made ribbon and not the usual U.S. ribbon. The differences are apparent when you place them side by side. Although it is hidden the medal suspender is produced by the 'N.S. Meyer Inc' firm and is marked as such.

It has a combination of both reproductions of official clasps as well as an unofficial clasp. On the back of each clasp (not the backstrap), in small impressed capitals, is 'MADE IN FRANCE' making these of later in the 1930s vintage. As can be seen the backstraps are of a uniform narrow width.

I hope this is of use.

Due to impending work commitments I'll shortly be having a longer break. Let's see if others join the party.

Regards,

Rob

Thank you "ALL" for the good information.

If you will note the type-set on ( A ) which I listed on my posting as a unofficial style from France you will see major differences from ROBW's posting ( B ) of unofficial clasps on the French made U.S. VM he posted.

In the unofficial ( B ) you see the coma is substituted by the use of the minus sign ( - ) in SOMME - OFFENIVE. Also in ( B ) of the unofficial clasp, the letters "M" in both (CHAMPAGNE MARNE & SOMME - OFFENSIVE) are upside down "W's". Adding to this, the clasp (CHAMPAGNE - MARNE ) is without clasp space separator bars on both sides. Finally I will point out the thickness of the clasp and half moons on the end.

Yet, there are space separator bars on both of the clasps, (SOMME - OFFENSIVE & CHATEAU THIERRY) of ROBW's posting. I ask myself why the differences? Was there an oversight on the (CHAMPAGNE - MARNE ) bar? Or were there two different full sets put out on the market? As I can see it, all "THREE" clasps were made by the same person/company.

JM

Edited November 25, 2009 by johnnymac

[johnnymac]

Hi to you All,

I put up for Q&A, - my questions and your answeres.

You see three official looking "SOMME, OFFENSIVE" clasps. The top one is for sure, an official issue clasp.

The other two look like the official type, but as you notice # 2 has less spacing between the "coma and the O"? Number three has a period not a coma? Are they manufactures differences?

Also the two "YPRES LYS" look like official clasp, but please note the lower bar and its stars, they are slightly offset to the left?

I would welcome all in put, thanks, JM

Edited November 25, 2009 by johnnymac

[johnnymac]

Hi to you All,

I put up for Q&A, - my questions and your answeres.

You see three official looking "SOMME, OFFENSIVE" clasps. The top one is for sure, an official issue clasp.

The other two look like the official type, but as you notice # 2 has less spacing between the "coma and the O"? Number three has a period not a coma? Are they manufactures differences?

Also the two "YPRES LYS" look like official clasp, but please note the lower bar and its stars, they are slightly offset to the left?

I would welcome all in put, thanks, JM

Edited November 25, 2009 by johnnymac

[johnnymac]

[RobW]

In the unofficial ( B ) you see the coma is substituted by the use of the minus sign ( - ) in SOMME - OFFENIVE. Also in ( B ) of the unofficial clasp, the letters "M" in both (CHAMPAGNE – MARNE & SOMME - OFFENSIVE) are upside down "W's". Adding to this, the clasp (CHAMPAGNE - MARNE ) is without clasp space separator bars on both sides. Finally I will point out the thickness of the clasp and half moons on the end.

Yet, there are space separator bars on both of the clasps, (SOMME - OFFENSIVE & CHATEAU – THIERRY) of ROBW's posting. I ask myself why the differences? Was there an oversight on the (CHAMPAGNE - MARNE ) bar? Or were there two different full sets put out on the market? As I can see it, all "THREE" clasps were made by the same person/company.

Hello JM,

As far as the clasps are concerned on the repro I posted I should clarify that the CHAMPAGNE-MARNE clasp looks like it did have spacers and they appeared to have been broken off. That would solve the issue of different clasps with or without spacers. I have seen the entire set of official clasps reproduced in this style indicating the same manufacturer, even down to the DEFENSIVE SECTOR clasp having no spacers.

I hope this clears things up.

Regards,

Rob

Edited November 26, 2009 by RobW

[RobW]

Hi to you All,

I put up for Q&A, - my questions and your answeres.

You see three official looking "SOMME, OFFENSIVE" clasps. The top one is for sure, an official issue clasp.

The other two look like the official type, but as you notice # 2 has less spacing between the "coma and the O"? Number three has a period not a coma? Are they manufactures differences?

Also the two "YPRES – LYS" look like official clasp, but please note the lower bar and its stars, they are slightly offset to the left?

I would welcome all in put, thanks, JM

Hello JM,

There is nothing unusual in the slight variations in these clasps. The U.S. Mint provided the 3 firms (Art Metal Works, S.G. Adams, & Jos Mayer) contracted to produce the vic's as well as the clasps with the hubs from which their own working dies would have been produced. It is likely that the slight variations occurred in these working dies but as they were all based on the same design hubs there shouldn't be large differences.

Another variety of the official SOMME OFFENSIVE clasp has been noted that has neither the comma nor a period; just a space. Of course this doesn't take into account those Army clasps actually produced by the U.S. Mint which have so far eluded exact identification.

These official clasps have also been seen with, and without, spacers.

Regards,

Rob

Edited November 26, 2009 by RobW

[RobW]

To all,

Same manufacturer; same design, thin backstrap, different clasp.

Regards,

Rob

[johnnymac]

To all,

Same manufacturer; same design, thin backstrap, different clasp.

Regards,

Rob

To All,

[johnnymac]

To all,

Same manufacturer; same design, thin backstrap, different clasp.

Regards,

Rob

To All,

[johnnymac]

To all,

Same manufacturer; same design, thin backstrap, different clasp.

Regards,

Rob

To All,

[RobW]

To All,

Is this the other clasp bar (SOMME OFFENSIVE) you speak of in your posting? As I remember from my reluctant printing shop days in high school, typeface and point letter sizes change over time. The typeface letters used to made this bar seems to be a (ARIAL) style. The Arial style was put on the market by Robin Nicholas and Patricia Saunders in 1982.

JM,

This clasps looks similar to that which is in Mr Laslo's book describing an 'ARMY OF OCCUPATION' clasp produced by the U.S. firm of Bailey, Banks & Biddle (BBB), which appeared in a 1939 catalogue. It uses the same typeface and has the same filled in edge loops and smaller stars. I have not, however, been able to confirm this yet.

Regards,

Rob

Edited November 27, 2009 by RobW

[Tim B]

Hi guys,

Well, thought I better show these as examples before we completely get off clasps. The good things about having VICS all in one location is "One Stop Shopping" for information; bad thing is the thread can go in so many directions and often the track can get muddy. If there was a section just for Victory Medals, then the various threads can cover the different aspects separately and be more concise and provide a more valuable reference to collectors IMO. Anyway...

Here are three examples of the French style reproduction pieces with fantasy clasps and the backstrapes marked "France" on the reverse. Not my pieces, so the PIC quality is what it is.

Tim :beer:

[johnnymac]

Can anyone help me with this!



The top box and cover, I can agree, is an old design but the bottom one seems to be a more modern-made box. Is there a time period for this style box?

Second, as I see it, S.G. Adams was contracted by the U.S. Government to assemble the Victory Medals and, if so, my question is why would the Adams Company send out unassembled items to Veterans who would be clueless on how to put together their own medal? One can argue that the government sent Adams Company, “the box already stamped with the Adams Company name, with the medal, the ring, the ribbon cut to size, a brooch and any clasps needed for that medal. But I think if that was so the cost to the government would be a killer cost.

Third, the stamped label on the lower box uses the term “unassembled with pin”. Didn’t the Adams Company know the word “brooch”? They used the word clasp on the top label, so we know that the Adams Company knows the difference between “pin and clasp” but not “brooch”.

Last, I am well into my mid sixties and do not ever remember the use of the abbreviation “Mnfg” for the word Manufacturer which is used on the box in question, as it has always been “Mfg” in day, and in the United States.



All help welcomed, JM

Edited February 16, 2013 by IrishGunner

[Tim B]

JM,

First, yes the three Vics I posted are in fact on ebay and obviously from the same seller. I thought it would be good to show some examples of the clasps and backstraps for those watching/reading in case they didn't know the variations. I feel sometimes a PIC is worth 1000 words if you can show what you're talking about.

I don't own any unofficial ones, so I have to resort to using what I can find online at the time. Just can't own it all!

As far as the boxes are concerned, I think you'll find they are a bit more complicated than just the "big three" of Jos Meyer, S.G. Adams, and Medallic Art Co.

I have never seen the lower version of the Adams envelope you show, not saying it's bad, just something I have never seen personally. As the piece says "unnassembled", I might speculate that perhaps a contract was extended to cover replacements down the road or for those late claims of award eligibility. Only a guess here, perhaps Rob or someone else knows for sure. Keep in mind that there were official bars (clasps) made with the pins for "replacement" medals.

Tim

I'll try to post a couple of my boxed ones.

Tim

[Tim B]

Here's an example of the Meyer setup:

[Tim B]

And then there are these types, without any manufacturer information. I have seen a few of these. Someone once commented they were official government (mint?) issues, but others thought they were smaller contracted outfits that were also authorized in the distribution process.

Tim

US 1st Div:

Edited November 29, 2009 by Tim B

[Tim B]

These always appear made to specific entitlements (to the clasps awarded). Always seems to be the same reddish-pink ink.

Tim

[Tim B]

I showed these two earlier, but again, here's an example of the "reissue" medal. Note the "Defensive Sector" clasp is of the pin-type, while the other three are original clasps with the backstraps. As most of the issued medals had at least the Defensive Sector bar, I would assume these bars were depleted from stocks first and thus, probably one of the first bars to have to be remanufactured.

I would then question if medals were put together with existing bars (backstrap bars) while waiting for the new stock of Defensive Sector bars to arrive. IF so, then that might explain why the decision was made to go to the pin style so they didn't have to continually remove the medal to add the last bar. Of course, it could be nothing more than manufacturing costs where two pins are cheaper than a full backstrap.

Anyway...

Tim

US 4th Div:

Edited November 29, 2009 by Tim B

[Tim B]

And the pin.

[johnnymac]

And the pin.

Hi Tim

Thanks for come back. PS, I was not knocking your posting. But it is shame someone had to take at less three US vic apart to get the medals and rings to get more for his clasps.

Here is another posting on boxes, note that the two on right (top & botto) are from ART MEDAL WORKS Inc. and one on the bottom is marked “unassembled with pin”. Please also note that 4 out 5 have clasps names stamped on their boxes.

Do you know who uses the abbreviation Mnfg and not Mfg. for the word manufacturer.

Thanks again, JM

[RobW]

JM,

First, yes the three Vics I posted are in fact on ebay and obviously from the same seller. I thought it would be good to show some examples of the clasps and backstraps for those watching/reading in case they didn't know the variations. I feel sometimes a PIC is worth 1000 words if you can show what you're talking about.

Tim

Tim & JM,

This particular ebay vendor has been selling vic items that would best be described as of a 'dubious' nature. Beware.

Regards,

Rob

Edited November 30, 2009 by RobW