King George V.I. CD and 2 bars

[TacHel]

Jeffskea and Sailor Ed,

We're all in agremment... (I think)... Quite an achievement in itself!

Like mentioned above, only a person awaiting an ED at the very tip of the 20 years of service might've been able to slide a bar within the 3 1/2 years the KC bar could've been available for award. But also as mentioned above, this would've required enlistment in 1929-30 and a waiver for pre 1939 service. Imagine how few people (if any) might've been on the list?

I've seen KC bars before, I think I may even have bought one at a gun show in Saskatoon 25-30 years ago, I'll have to check my "trinkets" box, but never have I seen one mounted on a CD that actually belonged on that CD... :unsure:

Edited March 17, 2012 by TacHel

[Sailor Ed]

Gentlemen I hate to burst your bubble but my group is exactly correct and perhaps I was unclear in my last post. I did not say anything about men were having already awarded gongs replaced by the CD what I said was the CD replaced all old British type long service medals. Any who enlisted post the cut off date (which was just before the start of WW2) had no choice but had to accept the CD as they were no longer eligible for the former British type awards. Those who had service before the cut off date, which was 1 September 1939, had the option to go for the old type awards or elect to get the CD. Some officers like RCN officers were not eligible for any LS recognition prior to the CD and perhaps army officers of the permanent force fall into that category as well and this will explain the next bit of my post.

Anyway if you care to look at General Orders the first listing for the CD is GO198 (1950) and in that GO there are 24 General Officers officers who received the second clasp to their CD - so a KG CD with 2 KC clasps. Most of the subsequent CD GO's (prior to 1953) also have clasps awarded to the KG CD.

So while not common there are many instances of a KC clasp to a GVI CD. I hope that clarifies it?

Ed

[jeffskea]

Thanks for clarifying that Ed, makes a lot more sense now

Jeff

Edited March 18, 2012 by jeffskea

[TacHel]

Actually, yes, great info! :)

[Laurence Strong]

This has been interesting :cheers:

[jeffskea]

Good discussion, always something new to learn with medals

Found an excellent resource on the CMP website under DH&R publications - the history of the Canadian Forces Decoration by Christopher McCreery, MVO - downloadable in PDF or viewable online:

http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/dhr-ddhr/pub/cfd-dfc-eng.asp

Jeff

[jeffskea]

Just reading through this fascinating history on Canadian long service medals - regarding the CD clasp in question - the KC design was actually issued until 1957 apparently - initially the sewing holes on the clasp were too small for a needle to fit so they had to make the alterations on future clasps. This may help to confirm that Ed's CD and clasp was one of the first issued in 1950. Interesting stuff.

Jeff

[jeffskea]

Suppose I should read the entire book before posting, but also reading that one reason some pre-1939 personnel still serving in the '50's opted for the CD instead of their old service specific medals - was the shortened service required and the possible attraction of post-nominals

It is a very complete resource that answers everything.

Edited March 18, 2012 by jeffskea

[Michael Johnson]

I am unaware of any account, written or oral, stating the C.D. could physically replace previously awarded LSGC awards, by that I mean the Efficiency Medal would be physically removed from the rack and replaced by a CD with bar(s).

This my tie into a family mystery. My uncle was Queen's Rangers, then joined 400 Squadron when it was formed in the mid-1930s. He joined the Active R.C.A.F. in 1939, and went Permanent Force in 1945. His medals, as given me by my aunt as mounted are: CVSM, War Medal, 1953 Coronation, CD (first type). Thus I was amazed to find in his service record that he was awarded the Efficiency Medal in 1934. My aunt vaguely remembered him wearing a green ribbon on his uniform.

His record of service is confusing as his Army service is variously reported, including Cadet service. I'm not sure he had enough service for an Efficiency in 1934, but there is no annotation of the award being cancelled. There was anothe William Hamilton who served in 400 Sqn. but he was Permanent Force, so would not qualify for the Efficiency. It looks like they reckoned his service from 1939, and so awarded him a CD in 1951. He was killed in an accident in 1957, just prior to retirement, so no clasp.

[Gunney]

Hello Forum Members

Just new to the Forum and now just getting a chance to read some of the posts and as the Canadian Forces Decorations are my collecting theme, I can provide some information on jeffskea original post on W.O.2 G.F. Finn CD,

SC-90057 WO1 GF FINN awarded his CD on November 5 1951

SC-90057 WO2 GF FINN awarded his first clasp April 16, 1962

Most likely his 2nd clasp was awarded sometime in the early Spring April-May 1972, hope this helps

Gunney

[Mervyn Mitton]

Gunney - Brian and I would like to welcome you to GMIC. We will look forward to hearing about - and seeing pieces, from your collection. Mervyn

[jeffskea]

Hi Gunney,

Thanks very much for confirming the dates of WO1 Finn's CD's and welcome as well I did a bit of research on his service number as well and the "C" designator seems to indicate he joined in Military District 3 - Eastern Ontario and South Western Quebec, and I believe he may have been born in Montreal.

[peter monahan]

Jeff

The census records for Quebec are not quite as easy to navigate as some others but they're not bad and there are some very helpful people on the genealogy web sites for Quebec, if you wanted to go that route to get more info. on WO Finn. There is an 'F Finn' listed on the 1901 census for Quebec, living in

Montréal (City/Cité) Saint-Laurent (Ward/Quartier), Montréal (city/cité), Quebec

Peter

[jeffskea]

Thanks Peter, that is great I will see what I can find

Jeff

Edited April 22, 2013 by jeffskea

[Michael Johnson]

I am unaware of any account, written or oral, stating the C.D. could physically replace previously awarded LSGC awards, by that I mean the Efficiency Medal would be physically removed from the rack and replaced by a CD with bar(s). As a matter of fact, quite the opposite, I started mounting medals while stationed in Moose Jaw in the early 80s and my mentor in the trade was the retired wartime RSM of the Sask Dragoons. He had the EM with 2 bars and a CD with no bar. I mounted dozens and dozens of sets from the Prairies in my 5 years there and it was always as such. Same when I was in the Maritimes. I mounted medals for over 20 years, this rule was omnipresent. The same principle applied to the Efficiency Decoration, just in case the old chap had been commissioned from the ranks, still impossible.

Frank, that is a question I am very interested in, as my uncle (R.C.A.F.) has in his group a GVIR CD. When I got his service record it states that he was awarded the Efficency Medal in 1934 (He had some Militia service with the Queen's York Rangers before joining 110 Squadron, later 400 City of Toronto). My late aunt remembers him having a yellow and green ribbon, but the group is as he wore it (WM, CVSM, EIIR Corontation, CD). Nothing in his service record about the award being cancelled. There was another Bill Hamilton in the Squadron, but he was permanent R.C.A.F.

His service records vary as to his Militia service - I would think that to have qualified in 1934 they must have counted his cadet service.

I've been tempted to apply for a replacement, as my theory is that he got the ribbon but was never issued the medal.

Michael

[Laurence Strong]

I could be wrong here Micheal, however as the Efficency Medal was Superseded by Canadian Forces Decoration he would only be allowed to wear the CD.......Canadian regs do not allow wearing two medals except for a couple of exceptions....The Korean war comes to mind.

Larry

Edited April 22, 2013 by Laurence Strong

[Laurence Strong]

Frank, that is a question I am very interested in, as my uncle (R.C.A.F.) has in his group a GVIR CD. When I got his service record it states that he was awarded the Efficency Medal in 1934 (He had some Militia service with the Queen's York Rangers before joining 110 Squadron, later 400 City of Toronto). My late aunt remembers him having a yellow and green ribbon, but the group is as he wore it (WM, CVSM, EIIR Corontation, CD). Nothing in his service record about the award being cancelled. There was another Bill Hamilton in the Squadron, but he was permanent R.C.A.F.

His service records vary as to his Militia service - I would think that to have qualified in 1934 they must have counted his cadet service.

I've been tempted to apply for a replacement, as my theory is that he got the ribbon but was never issued the medal.

Michael

Should have waited for the email notification............

Larry

Edited April 22, 2013 by Laurence Strong

[TacHel]

I have seen and had many veteran friends that had earned the efficiency medal and later the CD, they wore both for they were awarded for independent time in service.

The CD was awarded for 12 years following award of the efficiency medal or one of its clasps.

[Michael Johnson]

A former neighbour of mine (Alex Velleman) was RCA then RCAF and his book (The RCAF From the Ground) shows him (in service) wearing both medals. As was pointed out, they are for different time periods. Personally, if I take Bill's service record at face value he shouldn't have received a GVIR CD, but a clasp to his Efficiency somewhere about 1942, and then the CD about 1954. It looks like they dated his CD from the start of his wartime service. He was Auxiliary Air Force with 10 Squadron in Toronto 1932-39, joined the wartime R.C.A.F., then went Permanent Force after the War.

Michael

[Gunney]

Hello Forum Members,

Have read with great interest forum comments about the eligibility of the Canadian Forces Decoration and the Canadian Efficient Medal being awarded to the same member. The short answer is yes and it not as rare occurrence as one would suppose. If you research the The Canadian Gazette Part 1 Statutory Orders and Regulations dated Wednesday May 24, 1950 where it clearly defines eligibility for the CD and as it applies to other previous Long Service medals. I have included only the portion of this regulation especailly para 8 for Forum member to peruse at their leisure and hopefully clarify any doubts one has on this issue.

Gunney

“ Eligibility

All ranks of the Armed Forces of Canada shall be eligible for the Canadian Forces' Decoration provided that they have completed their required period of service, have undertaken all required phases of training and duty, and are certified by the responsible service authorities as efficient and in every way deserving of the award.

6. Service Required -Royal Canadian Navy, Canadian Army Active Force, Royal Canadian Air Force (Regular)

(a) Twelve years full time paid service in the Naval, Military or Air Forces of the British Commonwealth of Nations, provided the individual was serving on or after 1st October, 1946, in the Royal Canadian Navy, Canadian Army Active Force or Royal Canadian Air Force ( Regular) .

(b) Service in the Reserve or Auxiliary of the Armed Forces of the British Commonwealth of Nations, other than full time Active Service will not count as qualifying time.

© Personnel who were serving in the Permanent or Regular Forces of Canada on or prior to 1st September, 1939, may if they so desire count subsequent service for the award of The Royal Canadian Navy Long Service and Good Conduct Medal, The Canadian Medal for Long Service and Good Conduct (Military) and The Royal Canadian Air Force Long Service and Good Conduct Medal under existing regulations for these awards.

7. Service Requires-Reserve Armed Forces of Canada

(a) Twelve years qualifying service in the Reserve Forces of Canada which must have commenced after 21st December, 1921, provided that the individual joined or was serving in the Reserve Armed Forces of Canada on or after 1st January, 1946 in an active capacity in the Reserve of the Royal Canadian Navy, Canadian Army or Royal Canadian Air Force will count towards the award.

(b) Personnel who served in the Reserve Armed Forces of Canada on the 1st September, 1939, may if they so desire count subsequent service for the award of The Canadian Efficiency Decoration, The Canadian Efficiency Medal, The Volunteer Officers' Decoration. The Royal Canadian Navy (Reserve) Long Service and Good Conduct Medal and The Air Efficiency Award under existing regulations for these awards.

© Service in other Auxiliary and Reserve Forces of the British Commonwealth of Nations will count provided the last five years of service were with the Canadian Reserve Forces and no other medal of a long service, good conduct, or efficiency nature has been awarded for the same service.

(d) Service in the Regular Forces will count, provided that the last five years of service claimed for the award were served in the Reserve Forces and that such service has not been recognized by the award of any Regular Force decoration or medal of a long service, good conduct or efficiency nature.

8. General

(a) Any person already in possession of any long service and good conduct or efficiency decoration or medal and clasps, will be eligible to receive The Canadian Forces' Decoration, and to wear both, provided he has completed the full periods of qualifying service for both awards and that no qualifying service towards one award is permitted to count towards the other.

(b) War service will count as single qualifying service.

© Service to qualify for the award need not be continuous.”

Edited May 9, 2013 by Gunney

[VonRosa]

Hello all

My first topic and I already have something to contribute

My brother-in-law (TacHel, remember Mr. Lessard) have an efficiency award AND a CD (QEII) both named to him. I found this "interesting" when I first saw them so I made sure they were both named. I will try to get a picture and post later.

Edited May 14, 2013 by VonRosa

[VonRosa]

...My brother-in-law...

Should have read "...My brother-in-law's dad...