ID shield on steel helmet?

[Thomas W]

Here's a member of an infantry-gun battery, either 2 or 9. Can anyone identify the shield painted on the side of his helmet?

[Naxos]

Thomas, great image!

Infanterie-Geschütz-Batterie Nr.2 was a Bavarian unit - I believe Chip has a unit history

Georg Großkopf: Sturmbataillon Nr 1 (einschl. bayer. Infanterie-Geschütz-Batterie Nr 2) im Weltkrieg 1916/18. — Landsberg a.L.: Neumeyer 1938.

Edited September 29, 2011 by Naxos

[Chip]

This shield is in the Baden colors (gold shield with red cross stripe). I know of an original example in a collection. Infanterie Geschütz Batterie Nr.2 was associated with Sturmbataillon Nr.1 and is included in the Sturmbataillon history. There are a number of photos from the J.G.B.2 in the book, but none from this late in the war (late summer - fall 1918). The image that Thomas has shown is from a series of photos of this unit that are in the collection of the Imperial War Museum.

Chip

[Thomas W]

Okay, now I'm confused: Was Infantry Gun Battery No. 2 Bavarian or Badener?

Edited September 30, 2011 by Thomas W

[IrishGunner]

Okay, now I'm confused: Was Infantry Gun Battery No. 2 Bavarian or Badener?

Me too because the Baden shield traditionally has the red stripe going from upper left to lower right. This helmet shield goes upper right to lower left. :unsure:

[Naxos]

They were Bavarians, but sometimes these German kingdoms and Duchies had traditional affiliations with each other. For instance, the Bavarian 8th infantry regiment was named: Kgl. Bayerisches 8. Infanterie-Regiment Großherzog Friedrich II. von Baden.

... but IrishGunner brings up a good point - I noticed that too, it is not a proper Baden crest.

Edited September 30, 2011 by Naxos

[Chip]

Well, I never said that it was a Baden shield, only that it was in the Baden colors. What the colors mean, I couldn't say for sure. There have been instances, such as in the 3.Jäger Rgt. where a "Prussian" battalion was from Baden and the Baden colors were included in the various representations of the states within the regiment. Even the unit commander, Ralph von Rango, wore the Baden colored "darts" (Faden) in the cords of his regimental shoulder boards (red and yellow).

Chip

[Thomas W]

Here's a paragraph of a letter that came with the photo. Can anybody translate it? The seller of the photo said that the men were from the infantry-gun battery of Sturmbataillon Nr. 5 (Rohr), which is why I bought the image in the first place, but when I received it I saw the letters "J.G." on the shoulder strap. The men in the infantry-gun battery of Sturmbataillon Nr. 5 (Rohr) wore a red artillery strap with a "5" on it, but no letters.

Edited October 1, 2011 by Thomas W

[IrishGunner]

Well, I never said that it was a Baden shield, only that it was in the Baden colors. What the colors mean, I couldn't say for sure. There have been instances, such as in the 3.Jäger Rgt. where a "Prussian" battalion was from Baden and the Baden colors were included in the various representations of the states within the regiment. Even the unit commander, Ralph von Rango, wore the Baden colored "darts" (Faden) in the cords of his regimental shoulder boards (red and yellow).

Chip

I'm just being contrary here, Chip, but it's a black and white photo. How do you know it's "Baden colors"? Or even gold and red for that matter. There's is no way to know the exact colors in a black and white photo - is there?

It could just as easily be white with a blue stripe - the Bavarian colors, couldn't it?

It is the shape that makes one think Baden, isn't it? That's what I first thought until I looked closer and realized it's reversed.

Edited October 1, 2011 by IrishGunner

[Naxos]

Here's a paragraph of a letter that came with the photo. Can anybody translate it? The seller of the photo said that the men were from the infantry-gun battery of Sturmbataillon Nr. 5 (Rohr), which is why I bought the image in the first place, but when I received it I saw the letters "J.G." on the shoulder strap. The men in the infantry-gun battery of Sturmbataillon Nr. 5 (Rohr) wore a red artillery strap with a "5" on it, but no letters.

Thomas, in the German text the writer suggests that it is in the Baden colors, he realizes that the heraldry of the Wappen is reversed "spiegelbildlich." - but offers as explanation that the wearer, by mistake, reversed the template "Schablone" .

I say that that is the wrong assumption, since if reversed the cut corner of the shield should have been reversed as well. In German heraldry the single cut corner of a shield is always on the left side. Of course that doesn't mean that the shield is not in the Baden colors.

The writer adds, the fact that they got the Baden shield wrong speaks to the inofficial character of the shield.

I have to disagree. I'm from Baden and I would never get our State shield wrong - especially if I want to proudly wear it.

.

Edited October 1, 2011 by Naxos

[IrishGunner]

Thomas, in the German text the writer suggests that it is in the Baden colors, he realizes that the heraldry of the Wappen is reversed "spiegelbildlich." - but offers as explanation that the wearer, by mistake, reversed the template "Schablone" .

I say that that is the wrong assumption, since if reversed the cut corner of the shield should have been reversed as well. In German heraldry the single cut corner of a shield is always on the left side. Of course that doesn't mean that the shield is not in the Baden colors.

The writer adds, the fact that they got the Baden shield wrong speaks to the inofficial character of the shield.

I have to disagree. I'm from Baden and I would never get our State shield wrong - especially if I want to proudly wear it.

.

I'm still with you on this Hardy. I don't think this is a Baden shield. It's a possibility, but not a probability in my mind.

I looked to see if I could find something Bavarian with this shape/design, but no luck.

[Chip]

Irish Gunner,

Of course, I cannot tell the colors from a black and white photo.

My assumption comes from seeing a trench helmet in a collection back in the 1980s which had these colors on this type of shield. I've never seen anything else that resembles this shield on any other steel helmet. So, while I can't be positive, I can say that the only shield that I have seen that resembles this one was in the Baden colors. If you want to call the colors blue and white, I have no argument with that.

Regards,

Chip

[The Prussian]

To me it´s a Baden crest, because I see a grenade upon the shoulder straps. Bavarian artillerist didn´t have this grenade, they just had numbers

[Thomas W]

To me it´s a Baden crest, because I see a grenade upon the shoulder straps. Bavarian artillerist didn´t have this grenade, they just had numbers

Here's a closeup of a different print of the same photo, from the Bavarian Hauptstaatsarchiv in Munich. The number on the shoulder strap looks like a "9" or "7" here, not a "2."

Edited October 3, 2011 by Thomas W

[Chip]

So then, does anyone know the state origins of these Infanterie Geschütz Batterien?

Chip

[Chip]

Even though the J.G.Batterie Nr.2 was nominally Bavarian, it was certainly a mixed unit. The proof came a year or two ago when a lot of inisignia from the unit came up for sale. In the lot were two M15 shoulder straps. One had the bursting bomb with JG2 and the other no bomb with just the JG2. Notice the placement of the letters and number. The strap without the bomb was never meant to have one.

Chip

Edited October 4, 2011 by Chip

[The Prussian]

Nice shoulder straps, Chip! Thanks for showing! The strap with the grenade makes me wonder, because bavarians didn´t have those grenades. You are right with the IGB2, that they were bavarians. I haven´t heared anything about they were mixed. They were set up by the Ers.Abt./Geb.Art.Abt.2 and 4.

All those IGBs were set up by Ers.Abt. of Geb.Art.

We had different Geb.Art.Abt. of Baden (3,5 and 6 - they came from the XIVth.AK). They set up the following IGBs:

1, 3, 6, 9,). Maybe we are right with the N°.9???

Kraus wrote (Vol.2, page 718), that Bavaria got the shoulderstraps in april/may 1917, but without the grenade!

Chip: What does the XX upon the buttons mean?????

[Chip]

Andreas,

Those buttons are, I believe, Austrian. I think they were just souvenirs that were added to the shoulder straps. They have no meaning as far as the identification of the straps.

Chip

[Chris Boonzaier]

Hi,

I assume this is scandanavian? Another one of these went over ebay, maybe this helps a bit ...

[GRA]

Hi,

I assume this is scandanavian? Another one of these went over ebay, maybe this helps a bit ...

Swedish: "German fighting retreat on the Western front. Separable (probably dismounted, but litterary translated as separable) German guns transported away."

/Jonas