Mythology of late Kites and Pillars

[fukuoka]

Just to clear up one point on an earlier post. The Manchukuo Mint began making medals in 1943, as stated above, but I didn't know the month. I found that now: February 3, 1943 was the first day when the 'lower' orders were made there.

[fukuoka]

Another post to clear up a matter that has probably already been settled. That is, what Manchukuo medals are equivalent to what Japanese medals? I, too, had just accepted what Peterson claimed to be true, and it seems that he was right.　I have a 1942 publication approved by the Army Ministry called 'About Medals and Orders' (「勲章・記章の話」) that states it clearly: The Auspicious Clouds are the equivalent of the Rising Sun, and the Pillars of State are the equivalent of the Sacred Treasure.

OK, that was re-stating what everyone had been taking for granted, but at least it has now been confirmed.

However, to complicate matters a bit, this publication also implies that those who had received one order could not receive the other. Here is the Japanese, in case I mis-read it:

For the Pillars of State order: 景雲章を賜ふ以外の者に賜はる。

And the opposite was written for the Clouds order. Anyone ever heard of that?

Edited January 5, 2012 by fukuoka

[Paul L Murphy]

I have never read before that there was a restriction on people receiving both Manchurian orders. It is quite strange when you consider that receipt of the Sacred Treasure and Rising Sun was very common in Japan, especially for military officers. Can anyone find an example of a document group to the same individual which contains both awards ?

[JapanX]

However, to complicate matters a bit, this publication also implies that those who had received one order could not receive the other. Here is the Japanese, in case I mis-read it:

For the Pillars of State order: 景雲章を賜ふ以外の者に賜はる。

And the opposite was written for the Clouds order. Anyone ever heard of that?

Well Rich, here is something to keep the fire

I don't have a documented group in my collection that contains both orders (pillars and clouds) awarded to the same person.

But we (thank godness!) don't need these documented groups. All we need (and that will be more than enough) is photo of such person with both orders.

Luckily I have one such photo in my library of photo scans.

I will post it tomorrow.

Cheers,

Nick

[Dieter3]

This is above my pay grade..... :lol:

[JapanX]

Please welcome our unknown conquering hero

[JapanX]

And now close-up

[JapanX]

Well... What we`ve got here is clear case of violation of army approved publication called 'About Medals and Orders' (1942).

The only way to explain this photo will be to suggest, that before 1942 recipients could wear both orders.

[JapanX]

This photo clearly states

3rd class of pillars of the state = 3rd class of sacred treasure

4th class of auspicious clouds = 4th class of rising sun

But why pillars are quantitatively dominated by clouds?

Maybe because pillars basically were issued for sivil service and clouds for military service ?

I think this explanation is quite sound.

[JapanX]

By the way, most japanese military man indeed were awarded only by the auspicious clouds.

At least they wore only clouds

Let me present you this little photo set.

Edited January 6, 2012 by JapanX

[JapanX]

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[JapanX]

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[JapanX]

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[JapanX]

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[JapanX]

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[JapanX]

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[JapanX]

Hope you`ll like this one Rich

Cheers,

Nick

[fukuoka]

Yes, well, we cannot always believe something completely just because it was printed in a book, right? Anyway, it sounded suspicious from the start. Perhaps I misrepresented my source. Although written by Army Ministry men, it was meant to be read by the general public. So it is not as authoritative as an actual ordinance or rescript.

That being said, it is not a good idea to totally dismiss the statement but rather try and figure out why it was written. If any other sources state the same thing, we should take it seriously enough to investigate further despite (because of) the photographic evidence. Let me record the name of the book and author in Japanese in case anyone else can find it. There are two names and their positions listed on the cover and title page, so both bear responsibility:

「勲章・記章の話」　陸軍省人事局恩賞課長　及川大佐序 (preface)　　陸軍省属託金子空軒著 (author)

I have the 1942 revised edition. The first was published on April 28, 1938. Mine was published on August 20, 1942.

Published by 財団法人　軍人会館　(now known as the Kudankaikan):

http://ja.wikipedia....%BC%9A%E9%A4%A8

Edited January 6, 2012 by fukuoka

[fukuoka]

Oh, yes, and nice pictures, Nick! Thanks for posting them. It is interesting that of all the photos you have shown, only one of the men has both orders. Why wouldn't they all have both?

[JapanX]

Yep.

This is quite strange and could be explained by "pillars were for civil merit" and "clouds were for military merit".

And again maybe this is why we see dominance of clouds in quantitative terms.

Kwantun army (関東軍) with its 1 000 000 men was certainly a fertile soil for clouds

[fukuoka]

Or, to look at it from a different angle, the Kanto-gun (関東軍司令官) worked vigorously to establish the empire in many non-combat roles. Actually, the administrative functions far outweighed military activities. So whether or not a person was civilian or military, if the work they did was civil (as so many Japanese officers did), they would receive the Clouds. From Wikipedia:

'With the foundation of Manchukuo in 1932, the Kwantung Army played a controlling role in the political administration of the new state as well as in its defense. The commander in chief of the Kwantung Army simultaneously held the post of Japanese ambassador to Manchukuo. With the Kwantung Army administering all aspects of the politics and economic development of the new state, this made the Kwantung Army commander equivalent to a resident general, with the authority to approve or countermand any command from the nominal emperor of Manchukuo, Puyi.^'

Edited January 6, 2012 by fukuoka

[JapanX]

Agree.

But maybe this "military gets clouds" practice was only some kind unofficial formal rule?

Nevertheless I saw documents for 8 class clouds written for chinese civil collaborators.

Anyway it's very strange that see only clouds... Strange and still unexplained...

[JapanX]

Here comes very interesting but incomplete chronology of key medal/order events in Manchu (excerpts from the article of Paul L.T. Kua "Manchukuo's Award System & some of its Lesser Known Awards" published in 1998 by OMSA journal (most materials for this chronology comes from Mun Zhou Guo Shi (The History of Manchukuo) (in Chinese), Vol. 1, Chapter 5, pp. 62-66)

Date Event

9/5/1934. 1st award of 10 orders/decorations to Zhang Jinghui & other military officers.

2/6/1934 2nd award of 28 orders/decorations to Zheng Xiaoshou (Prime minister) & other

21/9/1935 Imperial edict #116, “Imperial Visit to Japan Commemorative Medal”.

28/12/1935 Award of 2,458 Imperial Visit to Japan Commemorative Medals.

28/11/1935 3rd award of 4,097 orders/decorations to officers of the Japanese Kwantung Army.

3/1/1936 4th award of 638 orders/decorations to civil servants.

10/2/1936 5th award of 315 orders/decorations.

29/2/1936 6th award of 1,779 orders/decorations.

10/6/1936 7th award of 1,574 orders/decorations.

14/9/1936 Imperial edict #142, Revised “Laws and Regulations Concerning Orders and Decorations” to include Order of the Pillars of State.

2/1937 Award of 2,400 orders/decorations to provincial/local civil servants.

14/7/1938 Imperial edict, “Merit Medals”, establishing 5 types of civilian Merit Medals.

11/1940 Imperial edict #310, “Border Incident War Medal.”

11/10/1943 Imperial edict, “Awarding Perseverance”, establishing a Perseverance Merit Badge and a Perseverance Badge, as well as a Perseverance Award Certificate.

19/12/1944 Imperial edicts establishing civil service and local administration merit awards.

Edited January 7, 2012 by JapanX

[fukuoka]

^{Sorry to offer information in small pieces, but I found a statement of what might be meant by 'lower classes.' In my 1971 Japan Mint history, in a discussion of the post-war medals, I found this sentence: 'Since there were a large number of medals needed quickly and the number of Mint workers was insufficient, from 1967 private manufacturers were requested to make some of the lower classes (Order of the Rising Sun 5th Class and below).'}

^{I guess that is actually two bits of new info since the use of private maufacturers during this period was unknown to me.}

^{BTW, Nick, I think my idea about the Clouds makes a lot of sense. Since the Kanto-gun performed a multitude of civilian duties in administering and running the entire country, it makes sense that they were awarded Clouds, not Pillars. I hadn't given it much thought before, but the more I think about it, the more it seems clear that this was probably the case.}

[JapanX]

^{BTW, Nick, I think my idea about the Clouds makes a lot of sense. Since the Kanto-gun performed a multitude of civilian duties in administering and running the entire country, it makes sense that they were awarded Clouds, not Pillars. I hadn't given it much thought before, but the more I think about it, the more it seems clear that this was probably the case.}

Well I am a little confused here Rich.

In that case (I mean non-military activities) shouldn't they all got pillars?

If of course pillars=sacred treasures.

I don't think that sacred treasure is "pure longevity award" and doesn't work as "award-for-actual-deed".

And of course sacred treasures (pillars) should be more "suitable" as rewards for non-military merit.

What do you think?

P.S. Private manufacturers back in 1967. Nice touch