Imperial Russia RUSSIA O.of Saint Wladimir Kerensky Period ?

[Veteran]

Hello everyone

Could this gilt metal 4th Class cross of the Order of Saint Wladimir be one of the post Csarist period ? The enamels look quite good and the arms of the cross are bulbeous. No hallmarks as far as I can see.

Anyone have an idea ? I really wonder how one can tell them.

Best regards

Veteran

Edited August 7, 2012 by Veteran

[paul wood]

Hello everyone

Could this gilt metal 4th Class cross of the Order of Saint Wladimir be one of the post Csarist period ? The enamels look quite good and the arms of the cross are bulbeous. No hallmarks as far as I can see.

Anyone have an idea ? I really wonder how one can tell them.

Best regards

Veteran

I am surprised it has no marks, normally bronze-gilt pieces are made either by Eduard or Dmitri Osipov. Having never encountered a provisonal government Vladimir I can only base information on other orders and I would suspect that the Imperial crown on the arms would be lacking, also during the Great War late Czarist period production of insignia was changed from gold to gilt bronze. From the information you have given me my suspicion is that it is a European (quite possibly French) made piece, many of which were produced during the latter part of the war when many allied soldiers who were awarded Russian decorations did not receive the award and during the civil war allied intervention.

All the best,

Paul

[Veteran]

Thank you Paul for this quick and considered information.

I have had this for decades now and strangely a very similar cross with swords was recently sold on eBay. This is why this one came back to my mind.

It does not look truly post-WW1-french, which are usually silver or silver gilt with proper hallmarks. Rather like this Cross of Saint-Georges, with flat enamels not the bulbeous look of the Saint Wladimir cross shown :

But this could nevertheless be the case.

Your help is, as usual, highly appreciated. Thanks again.

Paul

Edited August 8, 2012 by Veteran

[JapanX]

Anyone have an idea ? I really wonder how one can tell them.

We really need a better quality scans for that ;)

[JapanX]

I am surprised it has no marks, normally bronze-gilt pieces are made either by Eduard or Dmitri Osipov.

As far as I remember there were Eduard specimens made in bronze without K on lower obverse ray.

Having never encountered a provisonal government Vladimir I can only base information on other orders and I would suspect that the Imperial crown on the arms would be lacking, also during the Great War late Czarist period production of insignia was changed from gold to gilt bronze.

Imperial crowns on the arms survived the democratization process

Regards,

Nick

P.S. "He makes 2 and 2 make 5" .... Synergy?!

:cheers:

Edited August 8, 2012 by JapanX

[paul wood]

P.S. "He makes 2 and 2 make 5" .... Synergy?!

Nick, no offence meant and none taken I hope. You are right about the Eduard pieces, I have encountered some without the K.

Paul

[paul wood]

Thank you Paul for this quick and considered information.

I have had this for decades now and strangely a very similar cross with swords was recently sold on eBay. This is why this one came back to my mind.

It does not look truly post-WW1-french, which are usually silver or silver gilt with proper hallmarks. Rather like this Cross of Saint-Georges, with flat enamels not the bulbeous look of the Saint Wladimir cross shown :

But this could nevertheless be the case.

Your help is, as usual, highly appreciated. Thanks again.

Paul

No marks again, does not look like a later piece, possibly emigre or civil war and as you are well aware there was a large emigre community in Paris so this could explain it

[JapanX]

Nick, no offence meant and none taken I hope.

Are you kidding?! Of course no! :cheers:

[JapanX]

No marks again, does not look like a later piece, possibly emigre or civil war and as you are well aware there was a large emigre community in Paris so this could explain it

Better photos

+

Give me some time and I'll post for you some nice photos of these bronze Vlad's for revolutionaries ;)

Edited August 8, 2012 by JapanX

[Veteran]

Thank you all for your kind attention to this post.

Here is as large a scan as I can manage to produce. The enamel has a "see-through" quality, showing the metal background. This background looks very much like the older crosses made by the Russian jewellers which French makers have not usually tried to produce..

Hope this helps.

Best regards

Veteran

Edited August 9, 2012 by Veteran

[paul wood]

Thank you all for your kind attention to this post.

Here is as large a scan as I can manage to produce. The enamel has a "see-through" quality, showing the metal background. This background looks very much like the older crosses made by the Russian jewellers which French makers have not usually tried to produce..

Hope this helps.

Best regards

Veteran

My suspicion is that this may be a 'White' Civil War period award, the lack of any marks pretty well debars it being a Czarist or Provisional Government, sorry I can't be more precise. Nick may have further ideas.

All the best,

Paul

[Veteran]

Paul

I tend to agree with your suggestion. It makes full sense to me and really puts in better words what I meant by "Kerensky Period".

I hope other members of this forum will be kind enough to express their thoughts about the whole thing.

Thanks again.

Paul

Edited August 9, 2012 by Veteran

[JapanX]

There were two makers of St. Vladimir Order in bronze during provisional government period.

Dmitry Osipov (only saw without the swords crosses) and Eduard.

Osipov pieces usually bear mark

Edited August 9, 2012 by JapanX

[JapanX]

Eduard pieces bear mark

Usually these marks could be found on lower reverse (sometimes obverse) ray.

Edited August 9, 2012 by JapanX

[JapanX]

Here comes model Eduard

4th class with swords

Obverse

[JapanX]

Reverse

[JapanX]

Another Eduard

Umarked

3rd class with swords

Obverse

[JapanX]

Reverse

[JapanX]

Another 3rd class with swords from Eduard

Bayonet mounting + different style of central tablet

Obverse

Edited August 9, 2012 by JapanX

[JapanX]

Reverse

[JapanX]

Unmarked 4th class without swords from Eduard

Obverse

[JapanX]

Reverse

[JapanX]

Tablet close ups

[JapanX]

[JapanX]

Now let`s turn our attention to Osipov pieces.

4th class without swords.

Marked