JapanX Posted August 10, 2012 Share Posted August 10, 2012 (edited) This one was made by Keibel workshop somewhere beetween 1882-1899. Dimensions 62 mm on 87 mm Gold + Enamel Obverse Edited August 10, 2012 by JapanX Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanX Posted August 10, 2012 Author Share Posted August 10, 2012 Reverse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanX Posted August 10, 2012 Author Share Posted August 10, 2012 Marks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanX Posted August 10, 2012 Author Share Posted August 10, 2012 Marks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanX Posted August 10, 2012 Author Share Posted August 10, 2012 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanX Posted August 10, 2012 Author Share Posted August 10, 2012 (edited) This one was made by Eduard somewhere between 1903-1908. Dimensions 60 mm on 90,9 mm Gold + Enamel Obverse Edited August 10, 2012 by JapanX Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanX Posted August 10, 2012 Author Share Posted August 10, 2012 Reverse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanX Posted August 10, 2012 Author Share Posted August 10, 2012 Marks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanX Posted August 10, 2012 Author Share Posted August 10, 2012 Time for back to back comparison (Keibel piece is on the left) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanX Posted August 10, 2012 Author Share Posted August 10, 2012 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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JapanX Posted August 10, 2012 Author Share Posted August 10, 2012 Personally I prefer Eduard In conclusion this interesing comparison of Keibel with another Keibel Obverses Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanX Posted August 10, 2012 Author Share Posted August 10, 2012 Reverses Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pieter1012 Posted August 11, 2012 Share Posted August 11, 2012 Nick, Eduard or Keibel, I will not be picky if I could get one, but unfortunately way beyond my budget. Pieter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanX Posted August 12, 2012 Author Share Posted August 12, 2012 Nick, Eduard or Keibel, I will not be picky if I could get one, but unfortunately way beyond my budget. Pieter Yep. No time for being picky... Especially when asked price even for combined sets (for example badge from Eduard, breast star from Keibel and modern box) > $ 100 000 Regards, Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TacHel Posted August 12, 2012 Share Posted August 12, 2012 Can't be too many of those outside of Russia... And getting one out might prove quite impossible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanX Posted August 12, 2012 Author Share Posted August 12, 2012 (edited) Hmmm... Around 1050 were issued ... Many were awarded to foreigners. So they are out there somewhere ... At least some of them But I don't think that anyone will try to get one out of Russia for sale ... The real market (with astronomical prices!) for Imperal Russia awards is modern Russia. If in 1990s Russia was net exporter of it's own decoration, than 00s it became net importer :lol: Edited August 12, 2012 by JapanX Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul wood Posted August 13, 2012 Share Posted August 13, 2012 Hmmm... Around 1050 were issued ... Many were awarded to foreigners. So they are out there somewhere ... At least some of them But I don't think that anyone will try to get one out of Russia for sale ... The real market (with astronomical prices!) for Imperal Russia awards is modern Russia. If in 1990s Russia was net exporter of it's own decoration, than 00s it became net importer I notice for the Keibel version you chose an Albert Keibel piece, I noted that poor St Andrew looked like he had been crucified on a particularly bright day as he has chronic sunburn. As you are well aware the Keibel family produced official insignia for about seventy-five years. 1) KK, Kammerer and Wilhelm Keibel (1836-41) (have not seen any KK insignia of the Order of St Andrew). 2) Wilhelm Keibel (1841-62) who also in around 1850 was involved in the adoption of the 17 link from the 23 link collar and around introduced the metal star rather than the cloth star for the insignia set (have seen a collar set dated 1861) 3) Julius Keibel (1862-82) (turn up occaisionally), Albert Keibel (1882-1910) (along with Eduard the most common). What I am wondering is Is the AK badge a typical Keibel production or is there noticable production differences between AK and IK WK and KK. I personally like the ealrk Keibel pieces they are more subtle than Eduard. Although none are patch on Pannasch, there are images of a Pannasch badge and a Kammerer miniature coller in the Earl of Durham sale, Morton and Eden 10 June 2010. go to wwwmortonandeden.com and follow links to past auctions. All the best, Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanX Posted August 13, 2012 Author Share Posted August 13, 2012 (edited) KK, Kammerer and Wilhelm Keibel (1836-41) (have not seen any KK insignia of the Order of St Andrew). Same here... What I am wondering is the AK badge a typical Keibel production or is there noticable production differences between AK and IK WK and KK. Between AK and IK quite insignificant differences ... But even two Keibels with AK have small differences As for differences between WK and KK - couldn`t really comment since I didn`t saw WK Andrew`s... Although none are patch on Pannasch, there are images of a Pannasch badge and a Kammerer miniature coller in the Earl of Durham sale, Morton and Eden 10 June 2010. go to wwwmortonandeden.com and follow links to past auctions. Yes, this was one amazing collection! Personally I prefer Pannasch Nevsky over St. Adrew (simply amazing quality!). As for the miniature coller - I think it will be very interesing to discuss these miniature collers in a separate thread Regards, Nick Edited August 13, 2012 by JapanX Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul wood Posted August 13, 2012 Share Posted August 13, 2012 Same here... Between AK and IK quite insignificant differences ... But even two Keibels with AK have small differences As for differences between WK and KK - couldn`t really comment since I didn`t saw WK Andrew`s... Yes, this was one amazing collection! Personally I prefer Pannasch Nevsky over St. Adrew (simply amazing quality!). As for miniature coller - I think it will be very interesing to discuss these miniature collers (in a separate thread) Regards, Nick Nick, old age and poor memory are taking over. I have seen a KK Andrew about 20 years ago (I noted it in my copy of Tammann) it was in the collection of the Grand Dukes of Baden and was eventually sold, with all the other Russian Orders at Hermann Historica, 20 October 2000. There was a cased sash badge (KK) lot 8 which was issued with a cased Pannasch collar dated 1835 (lot 9). ther was also a cased KK Nevsky dated 1839, White Eagle and Anne (lots 13, 14 and 15), the last three all with original cloth stars and all including the Andrew of Pannash style manufacture. Also included was a cased Wilhelm Keibel collar, badge and star dated 1857 (lot 21). Also a sash badge with breast star (WK) the badge dated 1861 (lot 22 and 23) a sash badge 1865 to 70 With the N (reversed) (don't know how to do Russian script on this site) O (lot 27), a Nicholls and Plinke breast star (lot 28) and A cased AK collar, badge and star set. The photography in the catalogue is extremely good and well catalogued (Gustav Tammann was the cataloguer) might be worth contacting www.hermann-historica.com to see if they have any spare catalogues. Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drclaw Posted August 13, 2012 Share Posted August 13, 2012 Nick and Paul, thanks for a very interesting thread. The St Andrew would be one of the most beautiful Orders around and the quality of the workmanship exquisite - although you wouldn't expect anything less for a high Russian Order and Russian craftsmen. Nick, was interested in your reference that around 1050 awards were made. Would you know the numbers for other Russian awards, e.g. St Anne, St Stanislaus, St Vladimir, etc? Werlich's book is very useful but unfortunately makes no mention of the numbers of awards conferred. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanX Posted August 13, 2012 Author Share Posted August 13, 2012 it was in the collection of the Grand Dukes of Baden and was eventually sold, with all the other Russian Orders at Hermann Historica, 20 October 2000. Thanks for the tip Paul! Cheers, Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanX Posted August 13, 2012 Author Share Posted August 13, 2012 Would you know the numbers for other Russian awards, e.g. St Anne, St Stanislaus, St Vladimir, etc? Unfortunatly, since these orders were unnumbered and issued in great numbers nobody knows the exact (or even approximate) number. Regards, Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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