blueman Posted August 12, 2012 Share Posted August 12, 2012 nice helmet with its named tin ,what are opinions etc + a valuation would be a great help ....thanks kevhttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_08_2012/post-10499-0-31504800-1344767665.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_08_2012/post-10499-0-22813300-1344767688.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_08_2012/post-10499-0-94730100-1344767700.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_08_2012/post-10499-0-28321100-1344767726.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_08_2012/post-10499-0-81186600-1344767747.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_08_2012/post-10499-0-77178200-1344767765.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mervyn Mitton Posted August 12, 2012 Share Posted August 12, 2012 Blueman - another good find. However, you have posted the pictures with no mention of the labels or, other details. Please add these for the interest of Members. Mervyn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blueman Posted August 12, 2012 Author Share Posted August 12, 2012 hi mervyn not got it yet bought from aution in usa...kev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QSAMIKE Posted August 12, 2012 Share Posted August 12, 2012 Hello Blueman..... I bought one about a year ago at an American auction....... Including auction fees and shipping from USA it cost me a total of $950.00 US....... Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mervyn Mitton Posted August 12, 2012 Share Posted August 12, 2012 Mike - I wouldn't regard that as expensive these days. They are an investment and will certainly rise in price in the future. Blueman - you have a fine officer's helmet with all of it's fittings - including the tin. We will look forward to seeing full pictures when it arrives. Tell us what you paid - or, send me an IM. Mervyn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blueman Posted August 12, 2012 Author Share Posted August 12, 2012 hi it cost $650 + commision + postage so i reckon under £600.....kev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mervyn Mitton Posted August 13, 2012 Share Posted August 13, 2012 For this condition - and a known owner - I don't think this is at all unreasonable. Look forward to seeing more pictures and details. Mervyn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peter monahan Posted August 14, 2012 Share Posted August 14, 2012 I agree, Mervyn. Fair price for a lovely item and almost certainly a good investment as well. Can't see the price dropping nor great numbers of fakes appearing - just too bl****y complex to remake. I'm envious, Kev! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blueman Posted August 14, 2012 Author Share Posted August 14, 2012 hi is it normal to have a badge attched to rear spine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QSAMIKE Posted August 14, 2012 Share Posted August 14, 2012 hi is it normal to have a badge attched to rear spine Yes for this regiment it is....... See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gloucestershire_Regiment 1801 The French revolution began in 1789 and from then on set the whole of Europe alight with conflict. Under the genius of Napoleon Bonaparte the French had won battles against nearly every major nation and now dominated the European mainland. She now turned her attention outward towards Great Britain and Her overseas possessions. France had sent an expeditionary force to Egypt with a view to the invasion of India. The 28th were sent as part of a British force under General Sir Ralph Abercromby to counter that threat. They made an amphibious landing near Alexandria on the 8th of March. The French General Menou advanced towards the British who were camped about four miles to the east of Alexandria. He had the advantage of 1400 cavalry and superior artillery. He made a feint towards the British left but made his main thrust at the British right which included the ground the 28th were holding which was an old ruined fort on the Mediterranean coast. The fighting was very fierce and whilst under heavy attack to the front and flanks French cavalry was thrown at the 28th's rear. Lieutenant Colonel Chambers who had assumed command when colonel Paget was seriously wounded was undaunted by this alarming turn of events and gave the order ' 28th, rear rank only, right about face, and Although assailed from both sides the regiment calmly repelled all attacks in fierce hand to hand fighting. By 10.00 am the French were in full retreat along their entire line. In honour of the 28th's conduct on that day they were granted the unique distinction of wearing a badge on the back of their head dress as well as at the front. This badge takes the form of a sphinx with the word 'Egypt' beneath. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Wolfe Posted August 15, 2012 Share Posted August 15, 2012 Hello Blueman, A very nice helmet and the price is something most just dream of. Well done on a great purchase that will only increase in value with time. Hello Mike, Thanks for posting the history it was extremely interesting, not only to explain the location of the second badge but as an informational piece all on it's own. Well done...again. Regards Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jf42 Posted August 15, 2012 Share Posted August 15, 2012 Yes for this regiment it is....... See: http://en.wikipedia....rshire_Regiment 1801 Lieutenant Colonel Chambers who had assumed command when colonel Paget was seriously wounded was undaunted by this alarming turn of events and gave the order ' 28th, rear rank only, right about face, and Although assailed from both sides the regiment calmly repelled all attacks in fierce hand to hand fighting. By 10.00 am the French were in full retreat along their entire line. In honour of the 28th's conduct on that day they were granted the unique distinction of wearing a badge on the back of their head dress as well as at the front. This badge takes the form of a sphinx with the word 'Egypt' beneath. Just some points of information on the 'Back Badge' of the 28th Regiment (later 'The Gloucestershire Regiment'). The Wikipedia entry is a little oversimplified. As with many of the 'unique distinctions' that a number of regiments began to sport in the C19th, the silver plate with a Sphinx badge and regimental number that appeared on the back of the 28th Regiment's caps circa 1805 (there is no certain date) was not awarded to them as such. It was a distinction which the Regiment adopted for itself on returning from Egypt. Subsequently, as often happened, during the course of the war against Napoleon wearing the emblem became an honour enshrined by custom and tempered in battle. The same is true of the 'Red Hackle' of the 42nd Royal Highand Regiment- The Black Watch (1822), the 5th (Northumberland) Regt white feather (1824), the 46th (South Devonshire) Regt light company 'Red Feather' (1833) or the 23rd Royal Welch Fusiliers 'Flash' (1834). In none of those cases can the origin of the distinction be connected directly with a single verifiable event or award recorded by authority. All appear to have been emblems assumed informally at first, which the regiments adopted under their own cognizance. As was the case with those regiments, the non-regulation second cap badge of the 28th was eventually drawn to the attention of the C-in-C's office at Horse Guards- who had probably been turning a blind eye for some time. In 1823, the Adjutant General wrote to the CO of the 28th to say "I have the honour to acquaint you that it was never our intention to deprive the 28th Regiment of any badge of honour they may have acquired by their distinguished service in Egypt and that there will be no objection to their retaining the plate they have been accustomed to wear on the back of their caps since that service for which this letter may be shown by you to the Inspecting General Officer as sufficient authority. " Thus the custom was acknowledged officially and permission was given to continue wearing it, as was the case with the other regiments. In 1843, the 28th's "deviation of dress" was brought up again and the Duke of Wellington himself put an end to the matter: "The Duke of Wellington does not object to the continuance in wear of these ornaments by the officers and soldiers of the 28th Regiment." [sections in bold are mine] In fact, during the battle of Alexandria several other regiments in Moore's brigade were forced to turn back-to-back to engage enemy in front and rear, as successive French attacks attempted to cut off and destroy the British right flank- most being cut off and destroyed themselves. Only two regiments, however, were singled out for mention in the official dispatch after the battle; the 28th (North Gloucestershire) and 42nd Royal Highland Regiment: "The reserve, against whom the principal attack of the enemy was directed, conducted themselves with unexampled spirit. They resisted the impetuosity of the French infantry, and repulsed several charges of cavalry... The 28th and 42nd regiments acted in the most distinguished and brilliant manner." As we know, the 28th chose to commemorate their part in this desperate struggle- immortalised by Lieut Col Chamber's command "28th, rear rank only, right about face!"- in their own original fashion by adopting the 'Back Number' as it came to be known. In 1881, when regimental numbers were done away and the 28th were amalgamated with the 61st (South Gloucestershire) Regiment to become 'The Gloucestershire Regiment', the badge was changed to a simple Sphinx within a wreath. That is the badge on the blue HS helmet shown at the start of this post. On returning from Egypt, the Black Watch in their case found they could no longer ignore a series of recent regulations that had made the scarlet hackle feather worn in their bonnets for as long as anyone could remember (but that's another story), a deviation from authorised dress. The wish of King George III to review his Highland Regiment brought the matter to a head. On May 7th 1802, at Ashford in Middlesex, in front of a large crowd gathered for the occasion, we are told that Lieutenant Colonel Dickson, CO of the 42nd, had the inspired notion of requesting from the Monarch himself, as a privilege for the 42nd, the right to wear the scarlet feather in their bonnet. How could King George refuse? The glamorous Royal Highland Regiment, heroes of Alexandria, were the darlings of society even before they set foot back on British soil. A huge canvas of ‘The Battle of Alexandria’ by the Royal painter Loutherbourg featured a Grenadier Sergeant of the Black Watch at its very centre, his scarlet feather silhouetted against the smoke of battle, into which lines of more red-hackled highlanders disappeared to drive back the French. The Royal permission was graciously granted. Thus, what had previously been an ’ornament’ became an honour- and the rest should have been history (but that is another tale yet). The Sphinx badge itself had been authorised for all the regiments that served in Egypt by an order of 6th July 1802 which announced that the 'Egyptian badge' was in future to be "assumed and worn on the colours of the several regiments which served in the late campaign in Egypt, as a distinguishing mark of His Majesty’s Approbation and as a lasting memorial of the glory acquired to His Majesty’s Arms by the zeal, discipline and intrepidity of his troops in that arduous and important campaign.”* Regiments decided for themselves where else apart from their colours they would show the 'Egyptian badge'. As time went on it appeared on cap badges, belt plates and drum shells; subsequently, on the collar of the coat. Only the 28th and their descendants ever showed it on the back of their caps. In India, they wore it only on the back of their khaki Wolseley helmets. Today the Back Badge is worn by The Rifles, who absorbed the last incarnation of 'The Glosters'** in 2006. Another anecdote from Alexandria, unique to the 28th but hardly ever recounted, is that at the end of the battle the 28th, who were occupying a redoubt slightly forward of the main position, ran out of ammunition (as had most of Moore's brigade). French soldiers whose ammunition had also ran out, realising they were safe from enemy fire, climbed in the ditch below the rampart and started pelting the defenders with stones, one of which struck a sergeant of the 28th in the head and killed him. Men of the 28th started throwing stones at the attackers in return. Eventually the brawl ended when the two flank companies of the 40th, with some ammunition remaining, drove off the troublesome hooligans and the battle finally petered out. A story that never featured strongly in regimental tradition. They preferred to be known as 'The Slashers'. A shame, perhaps. *This was the first official honour awarded to all units involved in a campaign, including six cavalry regiments and some 30 regiments of Foot including the Coldstream and 3rd Foot Guards. The only previous case had been the award of the honour 'Gibraltar' to the four infantry regiments who served in the siege of 1779-83 (Prior to that there had been only a couple honours granted to single regiments to bear an honour on their colours: the 18th (later Royal Irish ) for Namur in 1695 and the 16th Light Dragoons, who had assumed a motif on their helmet to commemorate their role in the Allied victory at Emsdorf in 1760 and, in a pattern of events that would become familiar, were subsequently granted Royal approval for them to bear the honour 'Emsdorf.' **the ponderously titled 'Gloucester, Berkshire and Wiltshire Light Infantry' (allegedly known, affectionately, as "The M4 Rifles") Read more here <http://www.redcoat.info/Alex01.html> and in the excellent 'British victory in Egypt' by Piers Mackesy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blueman Posted August 15, 2012 Author Share Posted August 15, 2012 thanks for very interesting info....kev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark C Posted August 17, 2012 Share Posted August 17, 2012 Very fine exposition, that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mervyn Mitton Posted August 17, 2012 Share Posted August 17, 2012 JF42 - always appreciated when a Member with knowledge takes the time to add an explanation on something rare. Thankyou. Mervyn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jf42 Posted August 18, 2012 Share Posted August 18, 2012 Thank you, gentlemen. Always a pleasure. In the first footnote above, the reference should be to the 15th Light Dragoons (or Elliot's Light Horse. Later The King's Light Dragoons) not the 16th Light Dragoons. My apologies. I am innumerate. Tricky when writing regimental history. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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