Question Guy ? Red Eagle Order this time.

[W McSwiggan]

Just when I thought I understood this?

Brian posted a link to his site displaying Genlt. G?nther von Etzel?s awards. First, let me thank him for sharing these treasures with us.

I see a progression and I assume that the progression applies directly to the general.

The progression is:

RAO4X,

RAO3 with bow & swords on ring (statute ribbon)

and finally ? RAO2X with oak leaves on war ribbon with additional center stripe.

I was under the impression that earlier lower grade awards of this order ?with swords? entitled the winner to display swords-on-ring on higher grades of the order (forever) such as was the case with the RAO3 shown on Brian?s site.

Where have I gone wrong? I would have thought that the 2nd Class would have been RAO2X with oak leaves AND swords-on-ring.

This is based on conversations with some of our own esteemed experts and my understandings or misinterpretation of my readings (specifically Hamelman & O?Connor). Please ? please ? do not interpret this question as suggesting that Brian?s site or heirlooms are somehow incorrect. I am simply ? once again as always it seems ? confused!

[Guest Rick Research]

Andreas will know the official answer to this, but I think in this case the extra stripe on the ribbon served that purpose--

otherwise oakleaves AND swords on ring AND swords through the middle (granted for getting that grade during WW1) would have been QUITE aclutter. (Grand Cross with oakleaves AND Crown AND XaR below)

[attachmentid=26278]

(and below 2nd Class with Oakleaves and Xs-through-middle since no lower grades with Xs, showing the "statute ribbon" peeping out under his as yet oakleaves-less PLM-- just a couple of Extra Suspension Dinguses and you'd need to be REALLY tall to wear these. As it is, this is a "Prussian front" without all the OTHER stuff that would require Rosie Greer's and Ray Milland's only movie together to actually WEAR. In this case the Naughty German Patton has NOT removed his peacetime CO3 ribbon from his anachronistically worn in 1918 Old Style ribbon bar, as he should have. But I guess nobody was going to tell a General who wore a Hirschf?nger as his sidearm what to do! : )

[attachmentid=26281]

XaR was indeed worn on a PEACETIME REO2, but I think in the case when that grade was bestowed with Xs in its own right, the ribbon indicated the same thing in a less messy way. (It may also have something to do with the original Xs having been on the 4th and not 3rd Class, skipping a grade. If I thought about all this, I'd go mad. )

I have never understood the whole POINT to the "XaR" thing since lower grades with swords continued to be worn regardless of higher classes and so were VISIBLE anyway--

all the MORE peculiar when you realize that peacetime grades simply vanished into thin air when a higher grade with swords was awarded-- say a Crown Order 3 on bestowal of a CO2X. The Red Eagle's ribbon bows at least said "I've been promoted up from a lower grade so this is really my second not first award of this dingus," whereas a peacetime Crown 4th vanished for a Crown 3, and a Crown 3 for a Crown 2-- so a Crown 2 holder who'd received EITHER 3 or 2 grades getting there (usually only the 3rd) indicated NEITHER and only wore ONE award, period.

Inconsistent award logic.

[W McSwiggan]

Righto! And thank you for your quick reply.

But?

Nimmergut?s Orden & Ehrenzeichen (item 1675-1685) show swords, swords on ring & oak leaves. I picture this as very similar to the WWII RK with oak leaves and swords.

Still confused here?

Maybe just for foreigners???

PS - great pix!

Edited February 5, 2006 by W McSwiggan

[medalnet]

I was just made aware that there is a question on my favorite topic.

The answer is rather simple: With the Red Eagle Order everything is possible.

Well, there are the official rules of when and how certain attachements could be added to the order, but then the kings also awarded after their liking. Also, the rules changed over time and make it even more confusing.

Good point is the remark about: "Maybe just for foreigners???" and indeed, the rules for forgeiners are different as well as changed often. I do recommand to get all sets of statues and additions

[W McSwiggan]

OK!

Andreas ? now I get it!

If I don?t understand it ? that means that I actually do understand it!

All very clear now!

Gotta love this hobby...

Thanks Andreas & Rick ? I appreciate your time and explanations.

wem

[medalnet]

don't worry, I happen to have all the rules and regulations. If there is ever a questions: email me.

[Wild Card]

... Nimmergut?s Orden & Ehrenzeichen (item 1675-1685) show swords, swords on ring & oak leaves. I picture this as very similar to the WWII RK with oak leaves and swords. ...

True, but in his ?Magnum Opus? he allows, for example #1675 , was not awarded and that the one that he pictures is a museum copy.

[W McSwiggan]

True, but in his ?Magnum Opus? he allows, for example #1675 , was not awarded and that the one that he pictures is a museum copy.

That would explain the asterisk!

[Guest Brian von Etzel]

Thanks for the explanation to the extra stripe. I was curious to that one. I'm glad you guys are looking...

[Wild Card]

That would explain the asterisk!

Yes and no. The asterisk does apply in this case, however it also applies in cases where legitimate pieces do exist but are just too rare to be valued. Such a cases would be the Brunswick Order of Henry the Lion knight 1st class with swords through the middle (#591), and the Brunswick Merit Decoration for Arts & Science 2nd class (#607), one of which I recently posted a couple of pictures @ http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=5351.

In the case of #591, there were 5 awards and there were 24 of #607.

While we are on the subject, I think that it would be proper to address the cases where items are withdrawn (enf?llt). While this generally indicates that such awards do not exist, you have to exercise caution. For example, take item #1760, the Prussian Crown Order 3rd class, with swords and swords on ring. In the 1995/96 edition of the OEK, this item went from asterisk to withdrawn; and then, in the current edition it is now posted with a value of 4000 Euros. One was, indeed, sold for 4000 Euros plus a 20% commission at auction in December of ?04.

In my opinion, the OEK is an indispensable guide for any Imperial German collector; but that?s what it is - a guide, a reference, not a bible! Prices are determined by buyers and sellers, not authors and publishers.

Best wishes,

Wild Card

[medalnet]

I strongly agree with Wild Card's observation. We are dealing here with secondary sources and worse. The opus magnum (I don't even own it) as well as catalogue are nice little starting points but have unfortunatelly many mistakes.

[medalnet]

By the way, here is one of the impossible exmaples. Not made by Wagner, but Godet for a medal bar. Amazingly with a full lenght of that imposible to find ribbon:

[attachmentid=26417]

[medalnet]

...and the reverse:

[attachmentid=26418]

[medalnet]

...and to answer the question finally:

awarded the RAO4X

then RAO3 had swords on ring and bow as a sign that he:

a) had the swords in the 4th class (Swords on Ring)

b) had a lower grade of the order (bow)

He then must have gotten the 2nd class with oak leaf (proof of 3rd and 4th class) and swords (for bravery) on the 3 times white and 2 times black striped ribbon.

The special ribbon is the sign for the swords he was awarded for his 4th class and replaces the swords on ring.

You may also read:

The Red Eagle Order third class with bow and swords on the two times black- and three times white striped ribbon

....stripes instead of swords on ring.

The crown order above would be an award of the swords to an existing 3rd class with swords on ring. THe ribbon in this case would change, too. Yet those rules did change.....

You see, very easy

[W McSwiggan]

Unfortunately - to get it right one either needs the memory and intellect of a genius or 1 - much time, 2 - the award rolls and 3 - all of the pertinent regulations! Almost as impossible for us mere mortals as trying to collect this stuff!

Hoo boy ? think I?ve got a major headache now!

As I?ve amply demonstrated, I?m very fortunate that I am not a collector.

My interest is primarily in the people who wore these things.

I consider orders and decorations to be an indicator of a soldier?s significance ? fallible to be sure, but an indicator none-the-less. Big generals got big medals ? little generals did not. Fairness was not universally applied especially for junior officers and other ranks but that does not mean that a ?rack? should be summarily dismissed as being owned by a toady.

I am not naive ? over the coarse of a lengthy military career ? I?ve witnessed huge abuses of the system of military awards and that was without the foibles of aristocracy.

That said ? you have to love the almost infinite variability of Imperial German awards!

Thanks again ? one and all.

As a post script ? note how accurate Rick?s reply was!!!

[Guest Brian von Etzel]

"a ?rack? should be summarily dismissed as being owned by a toady"

Exactly, which is why I am so proud of my grandfather. He was there, had horses roll over him, and replaced two Corps. commanders who couldn't cut it.

[VtwinVince]

Brian, I guess you can't describe Opa as a "base wallah", can you?

[Guest Brian von Etzel]

No, although my warrior great grandfather who fought in some pretty nifty battles in the Franco war had to suffer through all those years of no wars. It's just sad to see him in his last years of service wearing all those breast stars with NO swords. But can you imagine how different WWI was from the Franco war? Or even a few years further back to the 66 Conflict with Austria? From those gorgeous uniforms to trenches. I think my grandfather had the last of the war as it once was played out on the eastern front as it was so fluid. Calvary was still for the moment on the eastern front the difference.