Serbia Serbia Kingdom medal Bar on Ebay

[Emanuel]

Greetings fellow members.

I just notice a sale of a FAKE Serbian medal Bar on Ebay, so just to inform whever bought this or who might find it on sale in the future, that this is a complete new medal Bar and for sure not with original Ribbons from Serbia Kingdom period.

Medals are original of course.

PS:No problem with reproduction, but BIG problem with sellers that CLAIM ORIGINAL period Medal bars..... ;)

[paul wood]

Ribbons look brand spanking new, either that or some one has soaked them in Vanish stain remover.

Paul

[paja]

Greetings Emanuel,

I saw that medal bar, I think it was sold for somewhere about 200$. What do you think about this one?

Same seller, no "hooks" for medals and a bit sloppy sewing. Some of the ribbons were identified by the seller,

he said that all of them are from Obrenovic era except 1913 war commemorative medal (+Red Cross medal).

Anyway If I am not mistaken this bar is consisting of:

--White Eagle

--Takovo Cross

--St. Sava

--Aleksandar Obrenovic coronation medal (according to seller)

--Silver bravery medal (1876, 1877-78, 1885-86)

--1876-78 war commemorative medal (according to seller) [on non-combatants ribbon?]

--1885-1886 war commemorative medal

--Serbian Red Cross medal (white, peace-time ribbon)

[if this ribbon was for a cross, not medal, I think it wouldn't have been on the place before the last]

--1913 war commemorative medal

Does anyone happen to have a complete order of precedence for Serbian (Obrenovic dynasty era) and then later

Yugoslav (Karadjordjevic dynasty era) decorations? I would be very grateful is someone could share it with us.

Regards,

Radmilo

http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_11_2012/post-7937-0-14870100-1351784435.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_11_2012/post-7937-0-71128500-1351784444.jpg

[paja]

http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_11_2012/post-7937-0-29063800-1351784534.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_11_2012/post-7937-0-56862100-1351784553.jpg

[paja]

http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_11_2012/post-7937-0-46838100-1351784653.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_11_2012/post-7937-0-31607300-1351784677.jpg

[paja]

http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_11_2012/post-7937-0-07530500-1351784746.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_11_2012/post-7937-0-29235600-1351784756.jpg

[paul wood]

A sloppy piece of pure fantasy. I could have done better stitching in my needlework class aged 6. As amatter of curiosity why does the Alexander Coronation Medal (yes the ribbon is correct) come before the bravery medal.

Paul

[Emanuel]

Greeting Paja,

I remember this Empty medal Bar too.

What we have here is a mix of original and post war ribbons on an original medal bar, device is proper and original too.

Of course all the hooks are missing and the stitching at the back as our friend said is on amauter level, never saw a worse one even on Serbian medal bars ( the few that are around as they are very rare indeed) got no such stitching.

I will post some pictures soon of my Serbian medal Bars, I do not posses any from Obrenovic era but I can find a couple of pictures to see what kind of "folding" for ribbons they was using back then.

[Emanuel]

As amatter of curiosity why does the Alexander Coronation Medal (yes the ribbon is correct) come before the bravery medal.

Paul

That's odd too ,Coronation medal comes in front of all Commemorative medals (including any kind of long service and Military merit medals) but AFTER all Bravery medals ( Obilic and all the Serbian-Turkish war medals ) even AFTER the French Military cross.

[paja]

Greetings Emanuel,

Thanks for sharing your knowledge with us. What comes to my mind is that if someone messed with this medal bar maybe not all of the ribbons

(except for 2 mentioned before) are from Obrenovic era. Maybe the blue ribbon is for the Medal for the zealous service and the pale-blue is for

Charity cross.

When you take a look at different Serbian medal bars, even though some regularity exists, there is a lot of inconsistency.

For example Albanian retreat medal is mainly in front of all of the commemorative medals (Balkan Wars & WW1) and also in front of the Medal for military virtue,

Medal for the zealous service, Charity cross...

Example 1: http://gmic.co.uk/in...-that-got-away/

Example 2: http://gmic.co.uk/in...r-bravery-1913/ post #7, your medal bar.

Example 3: http://gmic.co.uk/in...kan-war-ww1jpg/

But I have seen medal bars where it came after Medal for the zealous service and even First and Second Balkan War commemorative medals.

Example 4: http://gmic.co.uk/in...ia-medal-group/ after Medal for the zealous service.

Example 5 http://gmic.co.uk/in...a-5-medals-bar/ after Medal for the zealous service.

Example 6: http://gmic.co.uk/in...rbia-medal-bar/ after Balkan Wars commemorative medals

On some medal bars Albanian retreat medal is even in front of French Croix de Guerre.

Example 7: http://gmic.co.uk/in...-not-so-common/

But mainly is after Croix de Guerre:

Example 8: http://gmic.co.uk/in...ia-medal-group/

Also mainly after Petar I Coronation medal but can also be before:

Example 9: http://gmic.co.uk/in...ting-medal-bar/

Medal for the zealous service on the most of the medal bars goes after the Medal for military virtue , but I believe that you had in your possession medal bar

where 2 Medals for the zealous service came before Medal for military virtue (I know I saw that picture somewhere, not sure where).

These are just a few inconsistencies which helped me make a point, and this is the main reason why I've asked for a complete order of precedence.

Best regards,

Radmilo

Edited November 3, 2012 by paja

[obi007]

I know who bought the medal bar a man from Austria and I put a few bets too but after careful analysis, I decided not to put more bets!!! Probably the best way report item to EBay .

[Emanuel]

Greetings once more,

Nice homework you done there Paja once more,nice to see you interested much for the subject of Serbian medal bars.

Well, there is indeed inconsistencies on Serbia medal bars, but it's not the only country with this issue, remember we are dealing with people that had those medals and mistakes can happen always,aside the craftman that sometimes can do the same mistake out of ignorance despite the good explanation of the awarded person in which line to set the ribbons, it happen.

What I saw, the biggest problem is with the Albanian Retreat medal, there is where many Officers,NCO and war veterans have these issues with their medal bars.

What we have to remember here, that this is not actually a COMMON commemorative medal, it's a CAMPAIGN medal ( from a very unique, painful and deadly campaign as a whole Army pull from the mountains and landed in an other nation to recoup, impressive indeed!!)

When time passed ,after the war ,they saw what great achievement was that ,thus they gave the proper attention to this award, it's a high decoration, close to Bravery medal and for me, those people that walk that snowing path was Heroes.

Now, about the proper line up of the medals after the orders ,from MY knowledge that I deal with them some years is the following.

1.ORDERS,

2.Serbian Charity cross ( here people doesn't know that this was actually Order in that era and NOT a medal as collectors names it from the issued law of that time).

3.Medals of Bravery ( Here the line up is first of all the Medal of Obilic OR the Serbia as lady Bravery medal ,then all the other Bravery medals, French military medal, Greek Military bravery cross)

The ONLY bravery medal that comes before Obilic bravery medal, is the British military cross.l

4.Peter's Coronation medal.

5.Then it follows the Albanian 1915 Retreat medal.

6.Military virtue medal

7.Long service medals, Gold and Silver.

8.Commemorative war medals, a) A Balkan war medal "Osveceno kosovo" ,b) B' Balkan medal ( Π Cross ) , c) A' World war commemorative medal ( Peter's cross)

If there was in possesion medals from previous wars,they was coming in front of those commemorative war medals.

.So, you will see notice several medal bars out there that are not going with the instructions of the Medal and Orders Chancellery's office issued orders,but frankly I do not believe many of the officers gave much attention to this.

Last but no least ,remember that even King of Yugoslavia, Alexander I Karadjordjevic had his Albanian retreat medal at the last place of his Medal Bar

I know what you will say, last addition, why bother making a new bar? Just add it at the end and all in place

Hope it helps somehow

[paja]

Thank you very much Emanuel for sharing these information with us. I find them very helpful!

When it comes to retreat through the Albania I agree with you. That was one of the most tragic episodes in Serbian history, according to some sources around

250.000 people died during that long march or briefly after it. People who went though those snowy mountain paths were truly heroes. I have two of these medals

from my direct ancestors. I know for sure that from my family at least 4 people went through those mountains.

I had no idea that the Charity cross was suppose to go in front of Bravery medals! Thank you again for that and all the other information!

Best regards,

Radmilo

[paja]

By the way, this might be interesting to you in case you haven't seen it before, one more "empty" medal bar. This one was sold on one Serbian auction site

for around 150 euros.

[paja]

[paul wood]

Radmilo, thats more like a riband bar. Re the retreat to Albania, near where I come form in England there is a pub named after an English woman who as a member of member of the Serbian Army took part in the retreat to Albania, Flora Sands, she was the daughter of an English clergyman. At the outbreak of the war she went over to give medical assistance, once her medicall mission was taken by the Austrians she joined the Serbian Army and was awarded the Soldiers cross of the Order of Karageorge. She married a Serb and settled in Belgrade, there are two photographs over in the pub, both in Serb uniform, wearing a nice row of Serbian medal, and also marching imperiously in Belgrade. So in Thornton Heath Surrey there is a part of England that is for ever Serbian. Certainly after Kosovo it's one of the great episodes of Serbian heroism, unfortunately little known of in the west although it certainly deserves to be

Paul

[Emanuel]

Well,

what I have to say is a nice full original Medal Bar of course with original ribbons and hooks.

It's not of course a ribbon bar as our good friend from UK suggested but an obvious full size Medal Bar.

Now, as he got the Red Cross Order ( the one with the red enameled cross) and not a single Bravery medal that would suggest Battlefield action, I suppose he is a High medical officer.

So both his White eagle orders are without Swords, he receive the gold ( 4th class) and the Silver (5th class) White eagle order, next to his Yugoslavian Crown,Saint Sava and Red cross orders.

Interesting addition here we can see the Saint Andrews 40 year commemorative medal (8th position), it's relative rare to see it on an officer, he must be high ranked one, well a guess....

Any Military virtue or long service medals ( here the last ones cannot be the case as we talk about medical officer) would be AFTER the Saint Andrews commemorative medal.

About the Albanian retreat medal?

As I said in my previous post, the biggest mess once more and the only mistake on this nice original Bar, he just add these medals by chronological events, first the A' then the B'Balkan medals, the Albanian retreat and then the WW I commemorative medal, exactly how these campaigns was for the Serbian Kingdom.

[Emanuel]

Rare Serbian officer Medal Bar with the British Military Cross

Edited November 5, 2012 by Emanuel

[Emanuel]

Rare Serbian Medal Bar with the Greek and French Military Cross

[Emanuel]

Serbian Medal Bar of a Soldier with Gold Karageorge Cross.

Edited November 5, 2012 by Emanuel

[paja]

Paul that's a nice story and I am glad that a place like that exists in England. Flora Sandes is not forgotten in Serbia.

I remember that our teacher was telling us about her when we were still in high school.

Some time ago I watched a TV show on our national TV not only about her but also about other women from Britain

that came to help us during the war and of course about the Scottish Woman's Hospital.

Also a TV movie was made in Serbia about Flora called Our Englishwoman. http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0192353/

The movie was broadcasted on our national TV to commemorate 90 years since the end of the Great War.

I think she was married to a former Russian White Army officer. Here's one nice postcard with her wearing

Karagerorge star with swords, St. Sava and the Order of the Serbian Red Cross (on completely red ribbon?).

Edited November 6, 2012 by paja

[paja]

Emanuel he indeed was a high medical officer, actually a general. On the back side of the bar is written sanit.(etski) djeneral Jordan Stajic.

I've found couple of notes about him here: http://forum.valka.c...pic.php/t/68434 (25 Jan 1868 - 28 Jan 1949)

I think that on the 8th place is the ribbon for the Charity cross and that those red stripes are actually from the ribbons on the left and the right.

But everything matched perfectly to look like the ribbon for the St. Andrew's Assembly commemorative medal.

What could be on the 6th place? Czechoslovakian Order of the White Lion is the first thing that comes to my mind. Maybe even Polish

Cross of Valour, but not likely even though I've seen Serbian medal bars with this Polish decoration.

Emanuel thank you once again for sharing pictures of your impressive medal bars! I really like the one with the Greek War Cross.

My congrats on such a beautiful collection!

Edited November 6, 2012 by paja

[paja]

By the way is that medal bar with the British Military Cross the same as the one that can be seen on the picture in the post #14?

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php/topic/32324-serbia-rare-medal-for-bravery/

There was one medal bar with the British Military Cross but also with Czechoslovakian Order of the White Lion 5. class (Military division)

and the Frech Croix de Guerre on emedals.com.

[paja]

[paul wood]

Paul that's a nice story and I am glad that a place like that exists in England. Flora Sandes is not forgotten in Serbia.

I remember that our teacher was telling us about her when we were still in high school.

Some time ago I watched a TV show on our national TV not only about her but also about other women from Britain

that came to help us during the war and of course about the Scottish Woman's Hospital.

Also a TV movie was made in Serbia about Flora called Our Englishwoman. http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0192353/

The movie was broadcasted on our national TV to commemorate 90 years since the end of the Great War.

I think she was married to a former Russian White Army officer. Here's one nice postcard with her wearing

Karagerorge star with swords, St. Sava and the Order of the Serbian Red Cross (on completely red ribbon?).

Thanks for that

That's one of the photos we have in the pub. Nice to know that she is still remembered in Serbia, after her husband died she I believe she returned to England and settled in Surrey. If she saw Thornton Heath now she'd take the first plane back to Serbia.