Austria-Hungary 40 Year Long Service Decoration

[Yankee]

Can anybody name this Officer who received a 40 Year Decoration in 1916 who served in the 35 IR. Thanks in advance Yankee.

[Dave Danner]

I can't see a name. It looks like it says:

1916

Offizierskorps

des Ersatz-[banns]

k.u.k. IR

35

So not a specific individual name, but an engraving either to or from that replacement battalion.

[Yankee]

Hi Dave

I'm being optimistic that a member might have the schematismuses for 1917. There can't be too many career officers left in 1916 since they were decimated on the Eastern Front. Any idea where to retrieve info on the 35 IR? Excuse the previous poor foto, this should be better. Thanks

[Dave Danner]

I don't know if any of these were with the Ersatz-Bataillon, but below are the only three officers in IR 35 in the 1916 Rangliste with the Militärdienstzeichen für Offiziere 2.Klasse für 40 Jahre.

Kahler, Franz, Oberst

Zaljiček, Emanuel, Oberst

Šašek, Anton, Truppenrechnungsführer

Edited January 29, 2013 by Dave Danner

[Dave Danner]

Of course, something just occurred to me after I posted the above. If the cross was awarded in 1916, it might also be one of the D3 holders in the 1916 Rangliste who reached 40 years' service right after the Rangliste was published.

So you can possibly add:

Lamatsch Edler von Waffenstein, Rudolf, Oberst

Baumann, Eduard, Oberstleutnant

I have no idea how much service time they had in 1916, though. Several majors also have the D3, but they are likely too junior to have reached 40 years' and still be in that rank.

[Yankee]

You truely have a fantastic research library . Its great to know that I have a verified recipient but never imagined 5 possibilities. Also surprised to learn that there were that many long sevice officers still serving at that time. Many kind thanks for all

your help.

Sincerely

Yankee

[tifes]

Hi everyone,

I hope that someone of you with particular k.u.k. military schematism could help me with this as well and hence once again MDZ for 35 years. The recipient is higher officer teaching as a lector/instructor at infantry cadet school in Prague (Infanteriekadettenschule). He received its Long Service Decoration on 27^th January 1915. I think that it wouldn’t be very long list of possible candidates.

Thanks in advance,

tifes

http://img.janforman.com/MDZqy7s.jpg

[Yankee]

I hope my translation is fairly accurate.

From The Lower Ranking Subordinate Officers And Civil Servants

In Loyalty And Gratitude. Don't think he was from a line regiment, more likely the commissary, engineering or transportation.

Any other possibilities please suggest.

Only stamp marks is the "A" Vienna Assay Office & "FR lozenge" tax release mark.

[Yankee]

[Dave Danner]

Hi everyone,

I hope that someone of you with particular k.u.k. military schematism could help me with this as well and hence once again MDZ for 35 years. The recipient is higher officer teaching as a lector/instructor at infantry cadet school in Prague (Infanteriekadettenschule). He received its Long Service Decoration on 27^th January 1915. I think that it wouldn’t be very long list of possible candidates.

Thanks in advance,

tifes

http://img.janforman.com/MDZqy7s.jpg

Hi,

Here is the entry for the Infanteriekadettenschule in Prag in the 1914 Schematismus:

Of the candidates here: Tollich and Welser are still shown with the D3 in the 1916 Rangliste, while Schiller doesn't have his MDZ listed, but was junior to Tollich. That would appear to leave Anton Tlustý. He is not in the 1916 Rangliste, the 1916 Hof- und Staats-handbuch, or the 1916 Landwehr Schematismus, so he was either retired or dead by then.

[Dave Danner]

I hope my translation is fairly accurate.

From The Lower Ranking Subordinate Officers And Civil Servants

In Loyalty And Gratitude. Don't think he was from a line regiment, more likely the commissary, engineering or transportation.

Any other possibilities please suggest.

Only stamp marks is the "A" Vienna Assay Office & "FR lozenge" tax release mark.

I'd probably say "subordinate officers and officials". He could also be from a command echelon, like a corps command, or an Anstalt.

[Yankee]

I'd probably say "subordinate officers and officials". He could also be from a command echelon, like a corps command, or an Anstalt.

Thanks, for some reason I was thinking non- military.

[tifes]

Hi,

Here is the entry for the Infanteriekadettenschule in Prag in the 1914 Schematismus:

Infanteriekadettenschule in Prag.jpg

Of the candidates here: Tollich and Welser are still shown with the D3 in the 1916 Rangliste, while Schiller doesn't have his MDZ listed, but was junior to Tollich. That would appear to leave Anton Tlustý. He is not in the 1916 Rangliste, the 1916 Hof- und Staats-handbuch, or the 1916 Landwehr Schematismus, so he was either retired or dead by then.

Thank you Dave for all effort made, I really appreciate it but as we figured out it can not be major Tlusty and probably Schematisum of 1916 might help by great deal. Nevertheless once again big thanx and if anyone could help me it would be great.

Regards,

Tomas

[tifes]

I hope my translation is fairly accurate.

From The Lower Ranking Subordinate Officers And Civil Servants

In Loyalty And Gratitude. Don't think he was from a line regiment, more likely the commissary, engineering or transportation.

Any other possibilities please suggest.

Only stamp marks is the "A" Vienna Assay Office & "FR lozenge" tax release mark.

Very nice catch, congrats. It` s gilded silver which is quite scarce for Officers MDZ II. class. It´s private made decoration in very nice quality given by subordinate officers and officials (Dave is fully right) to superior one. I would assume that there is also silver hallmark, most probably "head of greyhound" (Kopf des Windhundes) not only "A" and FR in rhombus is maker´s mark for Franz Rothe not tax release mark.

Regards,

tifes

[Yankee]

Very nice catch, congrats. It` s gilded silver which is quite scarce for Officers MDZ II. class. It´s private made decoration in very nice quality given by subordinate officers and officials (Dave is fully right) to superior one. I would assume that there is also silver hallmark, most probably "head of greyhound" (Kopf des Windhundes) not only "A" and FR in rhombus is maker´s mark for Franz Rothe not tax release mark.

Regards,

tifes

Hi Tifes

Thanks for your kind comment on the LS Cross. Even the 3rd class decorations are hard enough to come by. I appreciate being corrected by having the proper translation from Dave and your thinking too. Unfortunately I was unable to find the head of a Greyhound or the head of Diana. I found one on a different cross with the head of Diana but without an Assay Mark who can figure....I must respectfully differ with you in regards to the purpose of FR stamps that are found on Orders & Decorations. According to Robert McNamara who wrote a Comparative Anatomy Of Medals And Order Insignia goes into great detail on stamps of Austrian Insignia. He was one of the leading collectors and authority on Austria and other Empire Nations, a bit before my time. He clearly states the tax release mark of 1866-72 is a dot between "FR" inside a rectangular punch. The next period is identical except the dot is no longer present between the "FR". The lozenge replaces the rectangular shape in the late period which begins in the late 1890's to 1921. If any Senior OMSA members should read this post and have a copy of Robert McNamara's work perhaps you'd like to confirm what I have stated.

Sincerely

Brian

[Elmar Lang]

Hello,

I need to point out that the "Freigelassen" mark for precious metal is not the "F.R" within a rectangle or, later, the "FR" within a lozenge: both are marks of Rothe, Wien.

I don't know what's the source from which Mr. McNamara knew that the "FR" mark would be a tax release one.

The official marking system of Imperial Austria has been completely described in "Oesterreichs Orden" , Graz, ADEVA, 1996, pages 388-400, with illustration of all the assay and state marks officially used under Imperial control: more, almost all jewellers' marks are quoted and/or described at page 399: "C.F. ROTHE & NEFFE, Wien, Kohlmarkt: wohl berühmteste österreichische Ordensjuweliere, gergründet 1844, tätig als Ordensjuweliere bis vor kurzem, Firmenzeichen "FR" und "CFR"; Erzeugung aller österreichischen Orden vom Goldenen Vlies, Militär Maria Theresien-Orden, bis zu den einfachsten Auszeichnungen in allen Klassen und Materialien...".

Best wishes,

E.L.

Edited March 18, 2013 by Elmar Lang

[tifes]

In the meantime when I was writing the response to Yankee I have found out that Elmar Lang already hit the point. There is nothing left only to agree but still this was my original reaction...

Of course, head of Diana or Greyhound might be struck together with „A“ on the suspension loop but it´s not obligatory. „A“ is hallmark for precious metal of Vienna Assay Office without any other specification of metal purity but in some cases it was sufficient, as for example Silver Bravery Medals (both classes) and Gold Bravery Medals – “A” in circle struck on the edge (of course only for those really made of the silver and gold).

Going back to “FR” issue. Well, with all the respect to your statements I would like to link here an article written by one senior member of this forum and I have to fully agree with all of the findings about “FR” maker´s mark.

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php/topic/43319-austrian-hallmarks-on-orders-medals-additional-comments/

MDZ II. Class as presented above it´s definitely Rothe und Neffe production. Generally there have been 2 major producers of MDZs II and I. class - Zimbler und Rothe. This is definitely Rothe without any doubt about it. “FR” in rhombus is quite common maker´s mark because Rothe was biggest producers of AH decoration, some of them almost exclusive, like EKO in all grades for instance.

Being honest I have never seen “Tax Free” mark on Austrian decoration but of course it doesn’t mean that such a mark couldn´t exist. This mark is also not mentioned in the work of the one of the foremost members of ÖGO Mr. Rochowanski who is considered great expert on Austrian hallmarks as such. He wrote excellent chapter on AH hallmarks in the book “Österreichs Orden”. I can fully recommend it. Hallmarks which have something to do with customs and taxes are hallmarks for imported silver and golden goods and so- called Vorratszeichen (supply mark)which is hallmark struck on gold ware/decoration made of (non-hallmarked) gold before 1867 which already had been taxed. It was preventive measure to exclude double taxation of the same gold.

Regards,

Tifes

[Yankee]

Hello,

I need to point out that the "Freigelassen" mark for precious metal is not the "F.R" within a rectangle or, later, the "FR" within a lozenge: both are marks of Rothe, Wien.

I don't know what's the source from which Mr. McNamara knew that the "FR" mark would be a tax release one.

The official marking system of Imperial Austria has been completely described in "Oesterreichs Orden" , Graz, ADEVA, 1996, pages 388-400, with illustration of all the assay and state marks officially used under Imperial control: more, almost all jewellers' marks are quoted and/or described at page 399: "C.F. ROTHE & NEFFE, Wien, Kohlmarkt: wohl berühmteste österreichische Ordensjuweliere, gergründet 1844, tätig als Ordensjuweliere bis vor kurzem, Firmenzeichen "FR" und "CFR"; Erzeugung aller österreichischen Orden vom Goldenen Vlies, Militär Maria Theresien-Orden, bis zu den einfachsten Auszeichnungen in allen Klassen und Materialien...".

Best wishes,

E.L.

I don't know this book nor the author but as you say it must be very informative. Does the book contain any illustration or description of the tax release mark?

Sincerely

Yankee

[Yankee]

In the meantime when I was writing the response to Yankee I have found out that Elmar Lang already hit the point. There is nothing left only to agree but still this was my original reaction...

Of course, head of Diana or Greyhound might be struck together with „A“ on the suspension loop but it´s not obligatory. „A“ is hallmark for precious metal of Vienna Assay Office without any other specification of metal purity but in some cases it was sufficient, as for example Silver Bravery Medals (both classes) and Gold Bravery Medals – “A” in circle struck on the edge (of course only for those really made of the silver and gold).

Going back to “FR” issue. Well, with all the respect to your statements I would like to link here an article written by one senior member of this forum and I have to fully agree with all of the findings about “FR” maker´s mark.

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php/topic/43319-austrian-hallmarks-on-orders-medals-additional-comments/

MDZ II. Class as presented above it´s definitely Rothe und Neffe production. Generally there have been 2 major producers of MDZs II and I. class - Zimbler und Rothe. This is definitely Rothe without any doubt about it. “FR” in rhombus is quite common maker´s mark because Rothe was biggest producers of AH decoration, some of them almost exclusive, like EKO in all grades for instance.

Being honest I have never seen “Tax Free” mark on Austrian decoration but of course it doesn’t mean that such a mark couldn´t exist. This mark is also not mentioned in the work of the one of the foremost members of ÖGO Mr. Rochowanski who is considered great expert on Austrian hallmarks as such. He wrote excellent chapter on AH hallmarks in the book “Österreichs Orden”. I can fully recommend it. Hallmarks which have something to do with customs and taxes are hallmarks for imported silver and golden goods and so- called Vorratszeichen (supply mark)which is hallmark struck on gold ware/decoration made of (non-hallmarked) gold before 1867 which already had been taxed. It was preventive measure to exclude double taxation of the same gold.

Regards,

Tifes

I had nearly forgotten that excellent thread that you directed me to. I know Pavel to be an expert in his field and certainly can't disagree with his proven findings. I'd like to think most of what Robert McNamara wrote is accurate for great detail is provided especially on Hallmarks. Perhaps I relied too much on his work and not enough thought given to newer research that collectors have written. I do appreciate your expertise and the others, I can honestly tell you it is no fun having faulty facts. Once I had met Mr Rochowanski and his kind wife who was also expert. I was just amazed by how informative & helpful they were and the items he had was smashing. Didn't know that Rothe and Zimbler were the only makers for the 1st and 2nd class LS Decoration.

Have seen a good amount of the 35/40 year crosses lately, hope those aren't being copied. I have noticed there seems to be a few jewelers that have made private purchase pieces, all the more interesting.

Sincerely

Yankee

[tifes]

I am glad that I could help but I have only shared the wisdom of others. Being honest I am mostly looking for publications and works of the authors of former AH territory like Austria, Hungary and Czech Republic. Some of the works, like Mericka´s Orden und Ehrenzeichen der Österreichisch-Ungarischen Monarchie is still great book even after 40 years since its publication. Some medium-decent knowledge of German in this particular area is more than welcomed.

Well, I wouldn’t say for 100% that there are only two official makers of MDZ II. and I. class but it´s also true that I have never seen anything else and I think that everyone of us have seen plenty of them. MDZ II. class (35/40 years) is made of gilded bronze but original piece of MDZ I. class (50 years) is made of gilded silver. Those are very rare and pricey, officially only 51 pieces bestowed, including Emperor Franz Josef I. MDZ I. class if made properly with all signs of originality but only in gilded bronze is original second piece (Zweit- oder Tragestück). All pieces in gold and also in silver in case of MDZ II. and III. class are private made. Some of them are having even dedication to particular officer as yours.

Regards,

Tifes

[Yankee]

I am glad that I could help but I have only shared the wisdom of others. Being honest I am mostly looking for publications and works of the authors of former AH territory like Austria, Hungary and Czech Republic. Some of the works, like Mericka´s Orden und Ehrenzeichen der Österreichisch-Ungarischen Monarchie is still great book even after 40 years since its publication. Some medium-decent knowledge of German in this particular area is more than welcomed.

Well, I wouldn’t say for 100% that there are only two official makers of MDZ II. and I. class but it´s also true that I have never seen anything else and I think that everyone of us have seen plenty of them. MDZ II. class (35/40 years) is made of gilded bronze but original piece of MDZ I. class (50 years) is made of gilded silver. Those are very rare and pricey, officially only 51 pieces bestowed, including Emperor Franz Josef I. MDZ I. class if made properly with all signs of originality but only in gilded bronze is original second piece (Zweit- oder Tragestück). All pieces in gold and also in silver in case of MDZ II. and III. class are private made. Some of them are having even dedication to particular officer as yours.

Regards,

Tifes

That is exactly what makes GMIC so spectacular, the members freely enjoy sharing their knowledge so others can learn.

One of my first books I ever purchased was Mericka's Orders and Decorations. The Author is a genius, back than the flow of info was more limited, more time consuming, paper and pen correspondence yet he managed to put together a series of books that is widely used by collectors from beginner to advance and one can just marvel at those wonderful plates. In Prague had hoped to see the collections that were pictured from his book but unfortunately had no success. I suppose after the communist state collapsed, the great collections were dispersed or only shown on special exhibits. Another favorite is the Austrian Orders book by Prochazka that contains many one of a kind jaw dropping pieces and fantastic detailed research. I'm glade to know that the 50th should be made from silver-gilt and not the gilded bronze that one sees from time to time. Basically the forgers are taking a perfectly good 2nd class and adding a forged crown and turning them into a 1st class and hoping the unsuspecting buyers know nothing about the orginals should be in silver only. 51 a lot of luck will be needed to find one of those. Now I wonder if they were all dedicated on the reverse... All the best.

Sincerely

Yankee

[tifes]

Vaclav Mericka is one of the world foremost phalerist and he and Baron von Prochadzka are rightfully considered first real research pioneers in phaleristics. His awesome collection was private one and he was in lively correspondence with many other phalerists of those times. He spoke many languages and moreover his wife was coming from wealthy aristocratic family so when he wanted something really precious he could afford it. Strange life for someone living behind Iron curtain but he made it out. He died in 2001 and because he didn’t have any successor he decided to give his whole collection as a gift to the National Museum in Prague. Unfortunately it was never presented to public. It has nothing to do with communist regime in Czechoslovakia before 1989.

Now, shame on me. MDZ I. class for 50 years latest version (1890-1918) was bestowed to 80 officers + Emperor FJI. There is an exhaustive list. Going back to silver/bronze issue. Best source of information is original Statute of particular decoration. It also states how such a decoration should be looking like and which material it was made of. MDZ II. a III. class are made of gilded bronze and MDZ I. class is made of gilded silver. That is sure. But the world is not black and white. Gilding on silver doesn’t have very long life span. Someone who is chemist here can surely explain it better but generally speaking gilding on silver is wiped out easily, just check out any private made silver decoration (EKO, FJO, LO). Moreover silver gets patina quickly and it leaves messy spots on the cloth. Military Merit Cross introduced in 1849 had plain reverse side without enamelling and officers had been using various techniques like gluing a piece of leather on reverse to avoid messing the uniform. That was a reason for enamelling the reverse side of MVK in the next decades to come.

Gilding in bronze is much better. It´s stable, cheap and reliable. In the list of 80 officers there is only one captain, few majors and not too many lieutenant-colonels and colonels. Like 65 others are generals of various ranks. Every officer had more than one uniform. General had to have many. It is also sure that he didn’t replace every morning all of his decorations from one uniform to another. All decoration had been usually sewed in. He needed more pieces than one. Bronze was cheaper and even better so his others MDZ I. class in gilded bronze had been purchased privately and used on his various uniforms.

MDZ I. class in gilded bronze doesn’t mean that it’s forgery. Not at all. If all signs are showing originality it´s OK but it is only so-called second piece. Of course there is a chance to put crown on the MDZ II. class but those crowns are not easy to find so if it is fake it´s usually cast. MDZ with dedication are unique in this sense. It´s private made piece for officer or non-commissioned officer from colleagues or subordinates. Every such a piece is a valuable asset to the collection.

[Yankee]

Vaclav Mericka is one of the world foremost phalerist and he and Baron von Prochadzka are rightfully considered first real research pioneers in phaleristics. His awesome collection was private one and he was in lively correspondence with many other phalerists of those times. He spoke many languages and moreover his wife was coming from wealthy aristocratic family so when he wanted something really precious he could afford it. Strange life for someone living behind Iron curtain but he made it out. He died in 2001 and because he didn’t have any successor he decided to give his whole collection as a gift to the National Museum in Prague. Unfortunately it was never presented to public. It has nothing to do with communist regime in Czechoslovakia before 1989.

Now, shame on me. MDZ I. class for 50 years latest version (1890-1918) was bestowed to 80 officers + Emperor FJI. There is an exhaustive list. Going back to silver/bronze issue. Best source of information is original Statute of particular decoration. It also states how such a decoration should be looking like and which material it was made of. MDZ II. a III. class are made of gilded bronze and MDZ I. class is made of gilded silver. That is sure. But the world is not black and white. Gilding on silver doesn’t have very long life span. Someone who is chemist here can surely explain it better but generally speaking gilding on silver is wiped out easily, just check out any private made silver decoration (EKO, FJO, LO). Moreover silver gets patina quickly and it leaves messy spots on the cloth. Military Merit Cross introduced in 1849 had plain reverse side without enamelling and officers had been using various techniques like gluing a piece of leather on reverse to avoid messing the uniform. That was a reason for enamelling the reverse side of MVK in the next decades to come.

Gilding in bronze is much better. It´s stable, cheap and reliable. In the list of 80 officers there is only one captain, few majors and not too many lieutenant-colonels and colonels. Like 65 others are generals of various ranks. Every officer had more than one uniform. General had to have many. It is also sure that he didn’t replace every morning all of his decorations from one uniform to another. All decoration had been usually sewed in. He needed more pieces than one. Bronze was cheaper and even better so his others MDZ I. class in gilded bronze had been purchased privately and used on his various uniforms.

MDZ I. class in gilded bronze doesn’t mean that it’s forgery. Not at all. If all signs are showing originality it´s OK but it is only so-called second piece. Of course there is a chance to put crown on the MDZ II. class but those crowns are not easy to find so if it is fake it´s usually cast. MDZ with dedication are unique in this sense. It´s private made piece for officer or non-commissioned officer from colleagues or subordinates. Every such a piece is a valuable asset to the collection.

How sad there was no stipulation in the donation of the collection to the National Museum that would have assured they be permanently displayed to the public. This does not guarantee there safekeeping in fact far from it. Not too long ago the American Numismatic Society sold off their entire foreign medal collection since that was not there main focus of interest. I'm not sure how the donors or heirs would have taken that. For the collector it was a windfall to obtain rare pieces that would otherwise been impossible to acquire. Perhaps there will be another windfall at the National Museum in Prague, why not if the collection never sees the light of day again.

Interesting that the MVK reverse was specifically designed not to stain the uniforms. The same can be said for the private purchase LS Decoration, some even made with exotic materials. The Novel Beyond Nationalism by Istvan Deak is The Social & Political History of the Habsburg Officer Corps from 1848-1918. There is a small section that goes into the costs involved being an officer, which the uniform itself was a fortune and for many they could not afford to replace it so easily. Fascinating the A-H was the only Empire where the officers had to know several languages to communicate with their men who were from other different speaking parts of the Empire. Thats pretty impressive considering there was no Roseta Stone. If I should ever have the good fortune to come across an early MVK with a leather patch will not disturb it. . Every now and then I see a star being offered with a leather backing. I suppose that too was done for the same purpose. Thanks for pointing out the gilding on bronze adheres better than silver. Now that would explain how a 3rd class private purchase LS Decoration had no trace of gilt. The one time owner believed it was never gilded in the first place. The Decoration had a very unique dedication. As described to me it had the recipients four colleagues named on each arm of the cross.

Sincerely

Yankee

[Elmar Lang]

Hello,

this is a most interesting discussion indeed.

In the next weeks, I will organize myself to take some pictures of my Militärdienstzeichen, including the gilt silver 1st Class cross I've recently added to my collection.

It's interesting to know that very few officers, besides the Emperor himself, were entitled for the highest class: is the list available?

Best wishes,

E.L.

P.S.: I agree: Vaclav Mericka was one of the deepest scholars in phaleristic: I hope one day his unpublished studies would be printed and his immense collection catalogued and published.

[Elmar Lang]

Hello,

as promised, I would like to add the pictures of my 1st Class, officers' Militärdienstzeichen for 50 years service.

The piece is in gilt silver and black enamel; the suspension loop is struck with the "A"; "Windhundkpof" and "FR" marks, while the suspension ring is struck with the "Windhundkopf" and "FR" marks.

Obverse: