Prussia Cuirasse of Garde du Corpe?

[Holmes_9740]

good evening Gents.

Being a new contributor I hope I am in the correct area.

I am trying to identify a Cuirasse acquired last year.

It has several details which lead me to the cuirasse of the Garde du Corps but i can't find any to compare it with.; also, I have never handled a real cuirasse of any type.

The nearest I can find is the Garde du Corps, Potsdam, Officers, Spring Parade Cuirasse, in use from 1814 to 1897; originally a gift from The Czar of Russia.

The shoulder straps and scales are similar, complete with the Lion head fixing. The strap ends have Oak leaf decoration.

Though having a good covering of light rust the inside edges show remnants of original black paint.

I did wonder if they were real or a prop of some kind but the inside padding material looks to be in the condition I would expect for something of this age.

Now to try uploading an image!!.http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_02_2013/post-15078-0-54620900-1359756292.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_02_2013/post-15078-0-93318800-1359756299.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_02_2013/post-15078-0-08738400-1359756594.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_02_2013/post-15078-0-05621100-1359756599.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_02_2013/post-15078-0-75967300-1359756703.jpg

[Holmes_9740]

Does anyone have any experience of Cuirasse; particularly Garde du Corps?

I am wondering if I should try a restoration of the black paintwork, as this seems simple to do.

Wallis & Wallis suggested a value of £250 today?!!.....seems rather low to me!

[Holmes_9740]

Having spent more time scouring the internet for information than I have actually studying the object itself I failed to find the name of "HARTKOPF" stamped into the brass edging; would this be the same company as Hartkopf & Co. Solingen , anyone know?

[Chris Boonzaier]

I am certainly not an expert on these, but I think this is Bavarian (The lions). it is of course possible that it was German made for another country, but I still think Bavarian.

Hartkopf did indeed make them, along with Krupp, not sure who else.

If hartkopf is the only stamp on it, I think it may be officers private purchase, as an issue one would have many more.

If Wallis and Wallis offers GBP250... then thats what it must be worth ;-)

(I think many of these auction houses are totally out of touch with reality when it comes to German items, the internet era has passed many by...)

[Chris Boonzaier]

P.S. I would hold off on doing any paint work.

[Holmes_9740]

Thank you for that input: the single stamp on each piece would make sense with a privately purchased item; some others that I have found have marks relating to Garde du Corps.

The lion head strap fixing bolt head is a characteristic of the Russian gifted Cuirass to the Garde du Corps in 1814.

Re-doing the paintwork would not be so difficult in itself but stripping the mounts and the padded lining would be a bit of a challenge.

I am very sceptical about the big auction houses.; apart from the odd very special item the big houses offer poor returns in my opinion. Looking at the recent results of a major sword collection at Bonhams, apart from the few special items, most made less than you would get at the local car boot.

[David Peace]

Good Evening

As a new member I have just discovered this post from earlier this year. I hope I can help with an identification of this interesting cuirass. Judging from the two main reference sources I have for information on the Imperial German Cavalry (cited below) I think it is an officers' cuirass as worn by Regiments 3, 4, 5, 7 & 8. I do not think it is a Garde du Corps cuirass as the two black lacquered versions presented to the GdC in 1814 and in 1897 did not have the broad decorative bands around the edges of the breast and back plates, and the GdC officers had chains on the shoulder pieces, whereas the regiments mentioned above had brass scales as in your photos. Regiments 1 and 2 had a gorget on the breast plate, and regiment 6 had a 'Tombac' plated cuirass which was gold coloured.

Paul Pietsche in Die Formations und Uniformierungs-Geschichte des Preussischen Heeres 1808-1914 Band 2 Kavallerie published by Gerhard Schulz, Hamburg, 1966, illustrates a similar cuirass in sketch 3, plate 97, page 59. This also includes sketches 4 and 6 which show the details of the lions heads on the rear part of the hinge and the leaf decoration on the end pieces of the shoulder straps that key onto the breast plate.

Messrs Ulrich Herr and Jens Nguyen in The German Cavalry from 1871 to 1914, published by Verlag Militaria, Vienna, 2006, illustrate and describe a cuirass exactly like the one in your photos on a double page spread on pages 274 and 275.

The black paint inside the cuirass is normal, as is the black paint usually found inside cuirassier helmets. As to value, I would expect to pay very much more than £250 if this cuirass were for sale!

[Trooper_D]

Holmes_9740 (if you are still out there)

Bonhams sold a tantilisingly similar cuirass for £3,840 on 13 May 2009 (see image, below). They described it thus,

An Imperial German Officer's Cuirass
The breast and back of brass, the rolled edges with white metal border, brass rivets, shoulder straps with brass scales, the front fastener decorated with oakleaves, the rear with lion's masks in white metal, retaining elements of the white leather waist belt.

More details here: http://www.bonhams.com/auctions/17083/lot/370/

However, if yours has rusted, it cannot be made of brass, of course. Bonhams sold an other rank's steel cuirass for £562 on 27 Nov 2013 but the straps on that example are rather simpler than yours,

http://www.bonhams.com/auctions/20803/lot/57/

I wonder if yours might be a senior NCO's cuirass being made of steel like an other rank's but with the ornamentation of an officer's?

Edited December 30, 2013 by Trooper_D

[David Peace]

Gentlemen,

The cuirass sold by Bonhams was an officers' cuirass of the 6th Regiment. This regiment wore a Tombac plated helmet and cuirass. Tombac is an alloy similar to brass which is gold coloured when it is polished. Officers of the other cuirassier regiments wore polished steel cuirasses. None of the reference sources I have seen so far mention a variation for NCOs. Helmets to the 6th Cuirassiers are invariably higher priced than those of the other regiments, except for the Guard, Guard Cuirassier and Regiments 1 & 2 which had their own distinctive helmets.

Helmut Weitze in Hamburg sometimes has cuirasses and his website might give you an idea of the value of this piece.

[Trooper_D]

The cuirass sold by Bonhams was an officers' cuirass of the 6th Regiment. This regiment wore a Tombac plated helmet and cuirass. Tombac is an alloy similar to brass which is gold coloured when it is polished.

Thank you for this clarification, David, which, I note on rereading it, you first made in post #7 - I should have taken it on board, then! In any event, the good news for Holmes_9740 is that he had a reasonably certain identification of his Cuirass!

This has been an interesting thread and I have learnt a lot from your contributions.

[David Peace]

Good Afternoon Trooper D, (and anyone else looking in)

Thank you for your kind response. It is always a pleasure to share knowledge.

Your suggestion was entirely reasonable as the Imperial German Army had so many ways of indicating rank that I wonder how they decided who should salute who!

I have been scouring the internet and any published source for information about cuirasses because I received an ORs cuirass for Christmas. Sadly the shoulder scales have been over cleaned and one of the key plates at the front has been damaged. I am hoping to get the damaged piece professionally restored. I will try to post some pictures when it has been done.

In the meantime best wishes for a Happy New Year.

[Trooper_D]

I have been scouring the internet and any published source for information about cuirasses because I received an ORs cuirass for Christmas. [ ... ] I will try to post some pictures when it has been done.

Well, that will be something to look forward to. This is an entirely new field of knowledge for me and, as ever, the more pieces one sees and discusses the more one learns.

Happy New Year to you, also.

[Holmes_9740]

Happy New Year to all our members.

Many thanks to Trooper-D and David Peace for the latest input into this thread. The puzzle is still ongoing though I feel we are getting closer to an Identification.

As Trooper-D pointed out the Bonhams example is indeed tantalisingly close to mine, the only difference being the colour.

Hours spent researching on the internet has not turned up as much as I hoped but it has been more useful than the direct contact with "experts" of the main auction houses.

I don't have access to the books so far mentioned as sources but will try to track them down.

Of course, there is no substitute for actually handling other examples.

[Holmes_9740]

Edited 10th Jan, I have answered the query below now.; learning rapidly!

"This regiment wore a Tombac plated helmet and cuirass"

Does this refer to the helmet and cuirass having mounts of Tombac?; mounted on steel presumably?

It is frustrating when most online references are from drawings and sketches, although, I'm sure these are intended to be accurate in detail as they had no access to cameras.

The variations are not only between regiments but of various times within the same regiments and, again within regiments, different armour for different occasions.

Very confusing.

Edited January 10, 2014 by Holmes_9740

[Holmes_9740]

This is an interesting point..

"The black paint inside the cuirass is normal, as is the black paint usually found inside cuirassier helmets.",

I suspect that had it been originally Black Lacquered then there would be more obvious signs of that, as lacquer is very durable. So that would suggest polished steel as the original finish.

As for the differences in the straps, again, I have seen examples with scales and chains listed as GdC..??

I'll keep looking; thank you for the help.

Edited January 5, 2014 by Holmes_9740

[Holmes_9740]

There is quite a difference in the edge of the Bonhams example. Mine has a very pronounced, upstanding, rolled edge which would be better designed to take the red piping, if it were GdC.

Also if the face finish was Black Japanned as opposed to lacquer then it could have been lost to time. I need to see under the brass strip!.

[Holmes_9740]

Trooper-D, thank you for finding these images, they are very useful comparisons.

However, if yours has rusted, it cannot be made of brass, of course. Bonhams sold an other rank's steel cuirass for £562 on 27 Nov 2

013 but the straps on that example are rather simpler than yours,

The second example is listed as Imperial German, Other Ranks, and is very similar in some details to mine particularly in the detail at the edges of the plates.; I think this set is made up from a Circa 1760 Breast plate, or earlier, as the proof shot was not done on the later Cuirass, also, the earlier armour was just a front plate, but that may have been at a much earlier period,; I am just putting snippets of information together as I find them.

One consistent detail with the later Prussian Cuirass is the low position of the lugs on the front plate.

Edited January 5, 2014 by Holmes_9740

[Holmes_9740]

There is some interesting discussion along with some good images on this forum. http://lagrandeguerre.cultureforum.net/t52250p15-les-kurasses-allemandes

I might register to invite some extra comment.

[Holmes_9740]

I have decided to invest in this book The German Cavalry from 1871 to 1914, as mentioned by David Peace.; I'm sure it will be a good investment.

[Holmes_9740]

Just found good examples here http://www.militaria-online.de/preussen , scroll down below the Pickalhaubs.

Time to get the brasso and the angle grinder out!

Edited January 10, 2014 by Holmes_9740

[Holmes_9740]

well the book arrived and a very interesting and informative book it is.

It still doesn't answer the identity question completely but I think we are looking at , as David Peace said, at Cuirassiers Regiments 3,4,5,7 & 8.; but there are some other variations within the other Regiments but I think we can rule out GdC.

It's slightly surprising that there is still limited information available to identify such things but then the research is half the fun.

I feel a bit more confident about attempting some gentle cleaning now.

[Trooper_D]

well the book arrived and a very interesting and informative book it is.

How are you finding the book, Holmes? Did you order it directly from the publisher and, if so, how difficult was that? From what I have seen here and in other fora, it is a 'must have' - but I am recoilling slightly from the cost

[Holmes_9740]

Relpy to Trooper D:

The book is a very well produced work and a must have for anyone with an interest in this period. I buy almost all my books through ABEbooks these days and I recommend others to do the same. It cost £100, is a new copy and came from a book seller in Colchester in two days.

It still didn't fully identify my Cuirass, to my satisfaction, and I am now in contact with the Author directly to assist.

Whilst browsing the book I was able to identify another item that I have, the identity of which had been eluding me for some time.; I have a piece of chain that I thought was a Helmet chin strap but i now know it to be a chain from a Gorget.

Another collector told me many years ago that "it is a poor book that is not worth it's purchase price". I think this one has earned it's cost already, so thanks again to this forum member for the recommendation.

[Trooper_D]

The book is a very well produced work and a must have for anyone with an interest in this period. I buy almost all my books through ABEbooks these days and I recommend others to do the same. It cost £100, is a new copy and came from a book seller in Colchester in two days.

Thank you. Yes, I think I know the seller your mean. I will leave it until the shock of Christmas has worn off, first, before I place my order, however

Edited January 19, 2014 by Trooper_D

[Holmes_9740]

With thanks to the author of "The German Cavalry, 1871-1914", and to his book, this Cuirass is known to be a Line Officers Cuirass, probably dating from the 1814 to 1860 period and from one of the other Cuirassier Regiments already mentioned, ie. 3,4,5,7,or 8.