Luftmensch Posted February 12, 2006 Author Posted February 12, 2006 These are in the same collection.
Les Posted February 12, 2006 Posted February 12, 2006 Anybody got an opinion on these???John, the first two don't "cut the mustard" as far as my two cents goes. The wings made as part of the wreath aren't the way the Austrians normally made these. Also, the claps system of the one on the left in the first group of pictures looks....squirrely and not the typical pin back or hook system normally seen on Austrian badges. The details don't appear to be all that crisp, and the badge on the right almost looks as if it was made frome a cheap pot metal (cast?).Usually well-rivetted backs is one of the things to look for on an Austrian badge, but that's really a matter of skill that can be acquired.The second set of badges? The aircrewman's badge (the one with the white enamel for those who don't know Austrian badges that well) -looks- good, but if this is from a dealers table, the presence of those first two would send me running. The other badge also looks good from the obverse side, but I'd like to see a better shot of the enamel, and hope the eagle has more detail than the photo shows. The rivets on the back aren't all that well done, which means I can't give you a thumbs up or down with any real certainty on this one...although I'm inclined to say pass on it if it was offered to you.Austrian badges are 'dangerous" to collect and the quality of the fakes in the last 10 years has gotten really good. The enamel looks good on most, but some of the older pieces have some superlative work that I haven't seen matched in the new stuff (yet).If you're thinking of buying, get an otpion to return within a reasonable period of time provided it's the two in the second photo. Pass on the first two.Regards,Les
Luftmensch Posted February 12, 2006 Author Posted February 12, 2006 Thanks, Les. Great observations. The 1st one on the left definitely looks like a Frankenstein piece made together from parts, the right-hand one is reminiscent of one of those many dubious Stormtroop badges, which even when original looked very cheaply made by war's end. Overall the quality of the four badges is definitely lacking compared with the few undoubted wartime pieces I've seen.This collector isn't allowing cherry picking so these will all go into auction together...somewhere. Here are two nicer cased examples. Which look good to me, except for their association with these other funky pieces.RgdsJohn
Les Posted February 12, 2006 Posted February 12, 2006 John,The cased example marked "3100" looks absolutely super. The engraving on the reverse looks more like German Suetterlien influenced script that the Austrian "latinische". The Austrians never used Suetterlien or Fraktur, that hints this piece may have been owned by a German.The other badge looks every bit as good as the first one. The -lettering- on the "3101" looks like it might be from the Austrian "school" but the slanted view makes reading the name and whatever else is there, tough. Now, whether the inscriptions are real or not, that's something I can't say based on looking at photos, and without checking whether the names match either German or Austrian records.Any chance on getting the full inscriptions on both, and then doing some quick research? Chances are the pilots were "no bodies" but both of those badges are both -something-. Thanks for posting those. That'll give me something to look at while this storm coming through the east coast of the US is burying many of us under the white stuff over the next several hours.Too bad the guy wants to sell them as one (?) lot... A novice thinking all are good, but the two cased ones are worth a great deal might bid the lot up higher than the low end dreggs averaged in with the good stuff is going to be worth.Les
Luftmensch Posted February 12, 2006 Author Posted February 12, 2006 (edited) Thanks, Les. A buddy turned these up at a gun show in Vegas this weekend. See the western badges in the background? The owner also had a shoebox of mostly bad American wings. What do you think retail is on a cased engraved Austrian? My guess is 2000-2500 for the case and badge, plus 500 for the engraving to a nobody. Risk of nosebleed above 3 grand, I'm thinking. I'll try to get the long inscription transcribed tomorrow. Edited February 12, 2006 by Luftmensch
Stogieman Posted February 12, 2006 Posted February 12, 2006 I wouldn't touch them with a ten-foot pole. Sorry for the delay John. No, no, no.
Les Posted February 12, 2006 Posted February 12, 2006 I wouldn't touch them with a ten-foot pole. Sorry for the delay John. No, no, no.Well...when Rick speaks on certain subjects (especially on the subject on flight badges) I defer to his opinion.Do what he says. Do what he says!Les
Luftmensch Posted February 12, 2006 Author Posted February 12, 2006 (edited) I wouldn't touch them with a ten-foot pole. Sorry for the delay John. No, no, no. Rick, I think you're in shock after changing your avatar after 50 years of being the observer of all things. Forget the rest, are you saying the cased ones are bad???? Why???? They aren't the quality of my Rothe, but I've never seen a Zimbler better than the cased ones! Just a few pointers...please.... Edited February 12, 2006 by Luftmensch
Stogieman Posted February 12, 2006 Posted February 12, 2006 The badge with the funky crown and ribbon below is pure fantasy. never made, the other is a Zimbler in another maker's case? Right.Rivets are wrong, pin is wrong, both maker marks are wrong.... but for me, the rivets alone are enough to say "yeah right"...Remember, these have been faked forever......... The fakes on the market date from the 1960's-1970's.... they have taken on a life of their own...
Stogieman Posted February 12, 2006 Posted February 12, 2006 Also.... a Karl badge with only one crown? I don't think so, he was the great "unifier" attempting to consolidate his "empire" by giving equal billing even as the world burned down around them...
Stogieman Posted February 12, 2006 Posted February 12, 2006 And, "clips" are wrong.... these look like classic Manion's fake engraving jobs....
Les Posted February 12, 2006 Posted February 12, 2006 Also.... a Karl badge with only one crown? I don't think so, he was the great "unifier" attempting to consolidate his "empire" by giving equal billing even as the world burned down around them...Rick,The Karl badges in the photos John posted all have double crowns. The FJI badges on the other hand, do not, and I have photo examples documenting the single crown FJI examples being worn during the war.No argument on the other points, although I'm usually critical of anything with an inscription if all I have to go on is a photo. Les
Stogieman Posted February 12, 2006 Posted February 12, 2006 Look at post number 10Initial "K"One Crown
kyokashinkai Posted February 12, 2006 Posted February 12, 2006 (edited) Interesting debate, i would agree that the majority of the badges look incorrect ,the revets being totally wrong ,the only badge worth a second look would be the general flyers badge,but then handling it would be the key.The boxed badges are 100% wrong,no way would zimbler sell a flight badge in another makers box. Non maker marked yes as badges were contracted out,but not like this.regardsSteve Edited February 12, 2006 by kyokashinkai
Luftmensch Posted February 12, 2006 Author Posted February 12, 2006 Hi, Steve--I'm trying to find out if Moritz Teller & Co. was a retailer in Vienna. If so it would be like Mappin & Webb having their own proprietary boxes....or do we know they are manufacturers, for sure? I've never heard of them.Rgds
kyokashinkai Posted February 12, 2006 Posted February 12, 2006 I have a non maker marked general flyers badge,together with contempory box to this maker,as far as i am aware they were outfitters for general badges etc, obviously it would require further research.photos of my badge and its box are shown on this site. http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/sho...=general+flyersregardsSteve
Luftmensch Posted February 12, 2006 Author Posted February 12, 2006 (edited) Nice badge, Steve. Is the box the same as pictured in this thread? This could be a mis-match, but if they were a large Viennese retailer with other branch stores I would be surprised if they didn't have their own logo stamped on. But then you would think they'd tell Zimbler to leave their name off as Juncker did on request.Speaking of Luftfahrers, I suppose you've seen this UK site? I love the drawings! http://www.austro-hungarian-army.co.uk/badges/luftfahrer.htmRgdsJohnPS I see what you and Rick mean about the rivets on the cased FJ piece, but comparing the K to the Uk site's specimens, it doesn't look half bad? Edited February 12, 2006 by Luftmensch
Stogieman Posted February 13, 2006 Posted February 13, 2006 The problem is that fakes and fantasy pieces of these have been made for so long, they are now circulating and look "old". The badges with the banner below the crown are pure fantasy, but I believe Chaliff pictured one, hence the acceptance. The "General Flying" Badge has probably a half dozen different makers from 1918-1945.... all different variations. I have one right now on the Sales Forum with impressive quality, but for sure made in Austria 1935-45. I think makers very much over-estimated the need for that badge!The Zimbler pieces I have handled in person all bore very distinct rivets, big and flush with the frame and a distinct maker mark that has been copied extensively, but they never seemed to get it quite right. Same with the clips on the back. They come so very close...I think Austrian Badges have probably been more extensively faked than even the German ones! One is really rlling the dice considering one of these sitting on a table somewhere. I wouldn't touch one I wasn't 100% absolute on.
kyokashinkai Posted February 13, 2006 Posted February 13, 2006 I agree with Stogieman, theres many a fakes out there.and a large number of badges were produced post war for the post war and third reich period. The fashion and military society dictated the wearing of Imperial as well as post war awards.Yet again you need to really handle the piece and see if any alarm bells ring.The site http://www.austro-hungarian-army.co.uk/is super and offers good pictures of accepted genuine awards. As always its "buyer beware"I presently own 3 original Austrian badges ,two from the Flayderman collection Some of my collection is illustrated on the forum link below.http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/sho...t=ebay+raritiesHope you enjoy looking ..regards to allSteve
Luftmensch Posted February 13, 2006 Author Posted February 13, 2006 Hi, Steve--Flayderman's collection was a prime example of buyer beware! Where do I look on this link?
kyokashinkai Posted February 13, 2006 Posted February 13, 2006 (edited) ..all my badges and medals are listed under 24/7 ...regardsSteveif you need any pics my email is stephenjfrench@msn.com Edited February 13, 2006 by kyokashinkai
Luftmensch Posted February 13, 2006 Author Posted February 13, 2006 Sure, Steve, for the purposes of this thread, why not post your other two A-Hs.Rgds
Les Posted February 13, 2006 Posted February 13, 2006 "badges with the banner below the crown are pure fantasy"......Let me make sure I understand which badge is being discussed. Is this the one with the double ribbons hanging below the single crown? I have one in my collection that's identified to the pilot in the photo (seen wearing the same exact badge), that came along with numerous photos and paperwork (including two tunics).Les
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