Unidentified 19th Century Sword Bayonet Identification

[TheDanger]

Hi

I was wondering if anyone could help identify this sword bayonet that has been in the family for awhile. I have only seen one other like it so far and can find no information on it.. It is stamped with Queen Victoria's Cypher which puts it the year between 1837 -1901. The entire length is 79cm. Any takers?

[QSAMIKE]

Take a look at this thread on the forum......

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php/topic/51120-1856-pioneer-sawback-sword/

Mike

[TheDanger]

I had a look through that thread. I should also say that it has the British acceptance mark stamped and directly below 'WD' which could be the War Department acceptance mark? Can also see what I believe is the Enfield Royal Small Arms Factory inspection mark.

[Brian Wolfe]

Hello and welcome to the forum.

Nice bayonet and as soon as I get home I'll verify what I think this is and post my findings. Unless one of our keen members beats me to it, and they probably will.

At this moment I think this is a pattern of Martini-Henry Artillery bayonet, however, I will verify that call.

Regards

Brian

[Mervyn Mitton]

Brian - I will leave it to you to answer. The thread on edged weapon gave you the date. This is a fairly rare bayonet.

I must also welcome you to GMIC. You're a long way away...............

[peter monahan]

Not strictly relevant to this bayonet, but I remember reading somewhere that German pioneer units in WWI took to filing off the saw teeth from their bayonets after reports that Allied troops were shooting anyone captured carrying one, presumably on the theory that they were 'terror weapons'. Anyone know whether there is any truth to that, or just an urban myth?

Also I, like Brian in the thread referenced above, wonder how useful these would have been. Typically, 'multi-purpose' blades tends not to be very good for any of the purposes when compared to single purpose tools. I can't see doing much sawing with that handle configuration without ending up with some serious blisters!

[Mervyn Mitton]

Peter, I don't think the 'shooting if you had a sawback' was ever published. I would say that it was word of mouth. Many German

sawbacks have had the teeth filed off. Remember, a plain blade might leave a 'clean' wound ' - a sawback would rip the insides out.

The purpose for the sawback - and remember that it was intended for artillery and pioneers - was to clear a field of fire and also for

advanced troops to prepare a bivouac. For this limited purpose it worked. Mervyn

[Brian Wolfe]

This is the Artillery Carbine bayonet 2nd pattern, 1875 and made for the Martini-Henry Rifle.

The first pattern (1875) had a 18 inch blade and the second pattern made in 1879 (which I would think this one is) had a blade 25 3/4 inches long.

The handguard had a slot for a sword-knot as they were meant to serve as a sword and a bayonet. Reports state that they were not very useful as a sword.

The teeth of these and any other British toothed bayonet patterns were removed in 1903 when the use of the saw-back bayonets were discontinued by the British.

As to these being rare I can tell you that they have never been common even back 30 years. I don't talk price or values but I will say that these, while still availabe at most shows, are not nor ever were cheap.

Shooting a carbine with one of these attached must have been difficult due to the excessive weight at the end of the barrel. Probably why they were in limited supply and eventually discontinued.

As to the saw tooth myth. I had indeed read reports and articles were British soldiers in WWI would shoot any German found with a toothed bayonet, one report stated that the soldiers would cut the nose off anyone found with these. The Germans removed the teeth during the war but I don't believe because of the myth. As to pulling out the "guts" of anyone stuck with one of these, this is also propoganda ot urban myth. The saw teeth were pounting forward on the German bayonets and therefore could not catch on the intestines upon withdrawing the bayonet. When you think about it, who would design the teeth to disembowel someone? Getting a bayonet back out when it got stuck on a bone was bad enough but pulling out intestines would only hold the a soldier up getting his bayonet freed.

I have never tried to cut wood with one of these, though I did own one. I did use a rusty old German butcher blade bayonet with saw teeth to try to cut a small tree limb and found it very difficult. I agree with Peter that this would end up casuing a lot of damage to the solider's hand in the form of blisters and perhaps even damage to the wrist (think of the angle of the hand to saw).

Regards

Brian

[TheDanger]

Thanks for the warm welcome everyone and the excellent information! Very interesting stuff.

[terrylee]

A Martini Henry Artillery Carbine with attached Pattern 1879 Bayonet. Looks rather ridiculous, but the combination was designed to counter an attack by cavalry.

Edited February 28, 2013 by terrylee

[Brian Wolfe]

A Martini Henty Artillery Carbine with attached Pattern 1879 Bayonet. Looks rather ridiculous, but the combination was designed to counter an attack by cavalry.

You have both? Very nice indeed now you have made me want this pair for my collection even more.

Thanks for posting the photo, it is greatly appreciated, even if I am now envious.

Regards

Brian

[Brian Wolfe]

Hi

I was wondering if anyone could help identify this sword bayonet that has been in the family for awhile. I have only seen one other like it so far and can find no information on it.. It is stamped with Queen Victoria's Cypher which puts it the year between 1837 -1901. The entire length is 79cm. Any takers?

I would be interested in knowing why, if this bayonet has been in your family for so many years it is also on ebay and closing in a few hours.

http://www.ebay.ca/itm/190721668169?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649

I have no problems answering questions about items for sale on eBay or anywhere else however I feel you may not have been quite above board with your post.

Brian

[TheDanger]

Good pick up!

I was posting from work without any photos of my own. That one on Ebay was the only info/pic I could find on the internet after an hour or 2 of looking! I'll grab some pics now of my one. Sorry for the confusion. Mine hasn't been badly sanded like the Ebay one. Interesting mark on the first picture. I haven't seen anything about 2 acceptance marks mirrored like that or their meaning. Not an ideal time for photos light wise here. I'll get some better ones soon.

My Great Great Grandfather used to make knifves. One day a man rolled up and asked if he could use this sword to make a knife from. My ancestor replied something along the lines of a no and the man went on his way. Months later it was found stuck in the ground in a stand of long grass along the drive way where the man had stuck it on his walk out. That's its story! The bloke really didn't want it it would seem.

[Spasm]

Oh no, foiled again

Get my coat Watson

[Brian Wolfe]

No harm done, it was the reaction of a suspicious mind. too many years in enforcement I guess.

I see from your photos that the blade has been stamped with the British double arrow mark indicating that the bayonet was sold off by the military. The fellow who brought it to your great great grandfather probably bought it from a surplus store with the intentions of having it made into the knife you mentioned.

Your story of how your great great grand father came into possession of the bayonet is a very interesting one. At one time many people thought converted bayonets made good knives, sadly this is not the case as your great great grandfather was well aware. It's good, and lucky, that this bayonet has been kept intact and along with the story becomes a real family treasure.

Sorry for the misconception, and thanks for taking the time to post the actual photos.

Regards

Brian

[peter monahan]

Peter, I don't think the 'shooting if you had a sawback' was ever published. I would say that it was word of mouth. Many German

sawbacks have had the teeth filed off. Remember, a plain blade might leave a 'clean' wound ' - a sawback would rip the insides out.

The purpose for the sawback - and remember that it was intended for artillery and pioneers - was to clear a field of fire and also for

advanced troops to prepare a bivouac. For this limited purpose it worked. Mervyn

That's why I brought it up! I would be quite surprised if such a thing were published in any official or public way. I also suspect that some troops, after heating fighting would be less than receptive to the argument that "Ve only use zis on trees."

I shan't point fingers, but certain nationalities, not excluding some members of the Empire had a less than sterling reputation when it came to their treatment of German POWs.

[TheDanger]

Funnily enough one just come up on Ebay here in Aus!

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/200904080482?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649#ht_1145wt_1397

Will preserve the excellent description here:

Ian D. Skennerton in his reference ‘Australian Service Bayonets’ states that the “the year 1879 saw the introduction of the Martini-Henry Artillery Carbine and sword bayonet into British service, and consequently numbers were purchased by the various Governments for service in Australia”. Skennerton goes on to mention how the bayonet was ‘favoured’ by Colonial Police with many remaining in service after Federation in 1901. Designed for use by artillery troops, with a very usable 9 inch sawback, the Pattern 1879 Martini-Henry Artillery Carbine Sawback Bayonet was an ‘attractive’ item and New South Wales charged troopers who lost their bayonets £1/9/2d to replace it, a considerable sum at the time. This bayonet is marked with a Queensland ownership mark, one of the states listed in Ian Skennerton’s ‘Australian Military Rifle & Bayonets’ that purchased these weapons.

This ‘museum quality’ bayonet has a 25.75 inch (654mm) long sawbacked blade, with s double row of 41 teeth for 235mm on the back edge of the blade. The blade is fullered on both sides, whilst the grips are black chequered leather, secured to the tang by four rivets. As the Pattern 1879 Martini-Henry Artillery Carbine has a sword bar on the upper band, the bayonet was mounted horizontally and consequently, unlike almost all other British manufactured sword bayonets of the period, the press stud is on the right hand pommel. The return spring is inlet into the left hand side and secured by a screw. The original scabbard is leather and steel with a teardrop fixing stud. The leather is excellent and the stitching is sound along its entire length. Both bayonet and Scabbard have an outstanding patina consistent with age and use.

With regard to Australian service, the Pattern 1879 was widely employed in New South Wales, Victoria, Queensland, and Tasmania. This bayonet is stamped on the hilt spine with a Queensland ownership mark Q B. 9. The weapons remained in service up to and beyond Federation in 1901 and many appear to have been re-issued for Police use after being declared obsolete by the military. Ian D. Skennerton & Robert Richardson in their seminal reference ‘British & Commonwealth Bayonets’ refer to the fact that these bayonets remained in use during both the Boer and First World War’s. A picture of an Australian Artillery Gun Team of the period is attached to this listing.

With regard to British Army use, these bayonets were employed by Artillery and Engineer troops within the regular British Army and Colonial forces and like this example are marked with War Department ownership marks. Unmarked examples, usually procured under commercial contract, were most often employed by volunteer and militia units. This type of bayonet was used by the British Army in all of it's major campaigns of the period until finally being declared obsolete in the early 1900’s although, as already mentioned, many continued in use with Colonial troops and police forces until much later.

These Pattern 1879 Martini-Henry Artillery Carbine Sawback Bayonet’s are now scarce as only just over 65,000 were ever made. Both Enfield and Wilkinson undertook manufacture of these sword bayonets with the later producing approximately 2000 of the total.

[Karl W]

Hi,

I have just stumbled across this thread on the Internet as I too have been trying to find the identity of what I now know to be a P1879 British pattern Sawback Artillery bayonet sword.

I have had this a number of years now gathering dust in a wardrobe, belonged to my grandfather who asked me to dispose of it! Just couldn't get rid of it so I'd thought I'd find its origins.

Reading the threads here have been quite interesting, as you can see from the photo it is in relatively good condition as is the leather scabbard. You can see some of the markings if anyone is interested in helping me find the history of this particular sword?

Kind regards

Karlhttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_10_2014/post-17636-0-81828900-1412967158.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_10_2014/post-17636-0-49015600-1412967387.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_10_2014/post-17636-0-35812600-1412967432.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_10_2014/post-17636-0-09126600-1412967474.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_10_2014/post-17636-0-00019700-1412967513.jpg

Edited October 10, 2014 by Karl W