Austria-Hungary Austro-Hungarian gerbirgsjager cap, Karl era, and strap

[grimble-nibitz]

It's show and tell for my hats, and this poor puppy, mothed, dirty from use and wear, has such character that I have always kept it. It was bought for me in the UK by a close friend, who got to the militaria show late...this hat was deemed so trashed by the south-east UK collector community that no one would even ask about it. So it became a gift, the shoulder strap was something that came in a large collection and is, I believe, correct for this piece of headgear, at least the piping is the same and the Karl cypher dates it to the same late war period. Yes, dirty and beat up, but likely worn high up in the mountains while fighting one of the numerous battles with Italy...it has a good story.

[IrishGunner]

Personally, I prefer the "worn" look. An almost new cap has no character in my opinion. And likely no stories.

[bcalkins]

This is a very cool cap...but it's origin is not Austrian. Austro-hungarian caps are my specialty and I have seen photos of literally hundreds of existing examples and I have never seen one with this type of piping. It looks more like a WWI Bavarian ski cap. The edelweiss also is more of a WWII pattern. WWI Austrian edelweiss, when it has leaves, had three, not two. I am not saying this is a put together piece...but if all original...I think the edelweiss and Austrian officers cockade have been added some time before you got it by someone who thought it was Austrian.

Can you post photos of the right side of the cap and also the inside? I would love to see and it would maybe help to solve the mystery.

[bcalkins]

After doing a little research...I think I have figured out this cap. While it looks somewhat like a WWI German ski troops cap, I believe it is a German or perhaps Austrian foresters cap from the WWI era to maybe the early 1930's.

[bcalkins]

Attached is a photo of a similar cap sold as a WW2 period M42 German foresters cap...

[Bayern]

Hello .the beatiful cap looks for me, as a Wurtemburgische gebirgsbataillon one . flat topped and with green piping . the forsters green of WW1 era was darker (piping ) and a light greengrey , the uniform .

[The Prussian]

Hello!

The Württemberg cap only had pipings on the top of the cap and a cloth visor. Bavarian caps had a black piping on the top and a kind of fibreglass visor.

I don´t know, which cap we see here, maybe a self-made one for officers (Eigentumsstück)

The cocade is an austrian officers cocade witht the K  (worn since february 28, 1917 for Kaiser Karl). The shoulder strap is from the austian-hungarian Landwehr-Gebirgstruppen.

The Edelweiß is not an austrian one. German troops didn´t have Edelweisse with stalks. If germans wore them, they used austrian ones. But austrians looked different to the one at this cap! Here we have a german WW2 Edelweiß (if it has four holes to sew on)

I attached an austrian (above) and a Wehrmacht Edelweiß (bottom)

Edited April 15, 2017 by The Prussian

[Bayern]

The Prussian : You have reason ,the WGB cap was piped on the top only .the mutze remains incognita . 

[The Prussian]

Note the "button-strap". It´s round. I haven´t seen that before. And austrian field-caps didin´t have any pipings.

Either it´s a cap of own property with pipings, or it´s a "collection" of an unknown green-piped cap with a WW2 Edelweiß.

[Bayern]

The Prussian : Yes ,the button strap is uncommon and also appears as it have originally one button and not two. 

[bcalkins]

The cap could certainly be Austrian or Bavarian, but is is not military. I agree the edelweiss post WW1 and most likely German. The cap was made with two button holes. Yes, it is hard to see the lower button hole thread, but is must be there. No tailor would have made a cap with a single hole that was off center in that way.

It's a very interesting cap, but neither the cockade or the shoulder strap are appropriate to the display.

[KMB]

On 4/14/2017 at 22:49, Bayern said:

Hello .the beatiful cap looks for me, as a Wurtemburgische gebirgsbataillon one . flat topped and with green piping . the forsters green of WW1 era was darker (piping ) and a light greengrey , the uniform .

@Bayern, that isn't a Württemberg Bergmütze. They only had piping on the top, there weren't single button Bergmützen either, they were round like a Krätzchen and flat. and they had sewing lines on the visor so the material wouldn't part from the inner material. @The Prussian, Bavaria didn't just have black piping. Black was for Artillery, so Bavarian, Prussian and Württemberg Artillery would have the black piping. Red was for Minenwerfer, so both Bavaria and Prussia would only have red. The cap in the first photo, with the shoulder board coming out, has a Kaiser Karl Officers cockade on it (Has K in the middle) 

[The Prussian]

Hello KMB!

Do you have some sources according to the colours of the cap-pipings, please?

[KMB]

Kraus book is where I got it from. There was green, black and red. Green was for truppen from 3rd Jäger Rgt, Bavarian and Prussian Gebirgs MG, Württemberg Gebirgs truppen (Both Schützen and MG used the green, minus their Gebirgs Artillery). Black was for Gebirgs Artillery, so Bavarian, Prussian and Württ Gebirgs Artillery would use the black. Red was for Gebirgs Minenwerfer, so Bavarian and Prussian Gebirgs Minenwerfer would use red. Württemberg didn't have Gebirgs Minenwerfer. As for the caps them selves, Bavaria and Prussia's Bergmütze had a vulcanfiber visor painted feldgrau, while Württemberg's Bergmütze had wool visor. There were private purchased version for both. Both came with a full liner with leather sweat band, and air vents. The issued version had partial lining and a cloth sweatband.

#1 Green piping

#2 Red piping

#3 Black piping

#4 Green piping

#5 Black piping on both caps

[The Prussian]

Hmmm, call me stuipid, but I own the Kraus books too. I haven´t found anything about coloured pipings

I read Kraus (Die feldgraue Uniform), vol. I, page 546/547

and  Kraus (Die deutsche Armee), page 310-313

 

[KMB]

Hmm strange, A friend told me what I said, he said he read it from Kraus book 

 

But I am sure that Bavaria didn't just use black

[Bayern]

Hello : I have not at hand my old Knotel Sieg Handbuch and other two books about the Imperial German Army . and i not want to affirm nothing foolishly , the next week i will return .

[The Prussian]

I´ve heard there were some differences between the first (green) books of Kraus and the new ones (grey) who were published a few years ago.

Kraus wrote in the book "Die deutsche Armee" (p. 310-313):

Schneeschuhmütze: ligh-grey cloth, field-grey visor, two buttons and green pipimgs on the top. A photo on p. 312 shows a bavarian cap with  "unusual" black pipings and another photo (p. 313) a württemberg one with green pipings.

His book "Die feldgraue Uniformierung" mentioned:

Schneeschuhmütze (p. 546):

light-grey cloth with green piping

The "Zeitschrift für Heereskunde" wrote in 1934 about the württ. Geb.Rgt.:

A field-grey cap with green pipings.

Your photo with the red-piped cap is very interesting, but I haven´t found anything written about it.

 

Edited April 25, 2017 by The Prussian

[KMB]

I've heard the ones you said that are in the Kraus book are both reproductions

 

 

Edited April 25, 2017 by KMB

[The Prussian]

I don't know. Maybe. But other sources don't mention the red piped ones too

[Bayern]

Hello : Knotel and the others said nothing about other piping colour that green , at least for bergmutzen . but as KMB had posted variously piped caps , they existed . I want to remember that during the Weimar era . existed in each infantry division a bataillon of jaegers . from 1925 onwards part of these units were trained and equiped as mountain troops putting at the side the prohibitions of  Versailles treaty . these troops .weared the same bergmutze of WW1 era . returning to the presumptive austrian cap , we had forgottened the swiss army and the finnish army . both weared mountain caps 

[The Prussian]

There is an article in the "Zeitschrift für Heereskunde" (1958, page 69)

That mentiones the württ. Geb.Mütze with RED pipings!

Kraus wrote in his book (vol.2), that prussian Gebirgsartillerie had black pipings at the collar and tunic. Bavarian units had a black piping around the cap, while the other had RED ones.

So, KMB is right with the red pipings!

 

 

Edited April 29, 2017 by The Prussian

[Bayern]

Good ! more enlightment , the theme is a interesting one . i reads that medical and veterinarians used no piping on the bergmutze . 

[The Prussian]

Where did you read it, please?

[Bayern]

The Prussian : In the article that you posted , the last two lines ,