Unidentified Oberstabartz II Klasse

[Ian]

This Oberstabartz has defied identification for a long time. I would have thought with the decorations he is wearing that he would stand out like a sore thumb ( I have a 1918 Jahrbuch fur Miliatartze), but no luck! Even friends in Austria have be unable to decipher his name and as a consequence I am gratefuil for any help.

Regards,

Ian

[Guest Rick Research]

Doctor's handwriting is the same EVERYWHERE!

I agree, he must be some sort of "war's duration" type--this will come down to his highly peculiar combination of awards. The wretched Austrian "Schematismus" rank list don't show foreign awards--the ONLY way to sort out distinctive groups.

He got both Prussian Red Cross Medals during the war--that's a "teardrop" 1915/16 3rd Class, which means he got the 2nd waaaay earlier than the statute 5 years in grade.

[Ian]

Thank you both for the help. I don' think I will ever get a positive ID for Herr Doktor.

Can either of you tell me what the cross is just below the FJO, but above the Red Crosss decoration?

[Eric Stahlhut]

seems to be the bavarian royal merit order of saint michael

Edited July 9, 2013 by Eric Stahlhut

[Guest Rick Research]

Yup. Unfortunately the only listing I have is for native Bavarians.

I'm going through the 1915 "Ehrenbuch" (usually called the "Golden Book" from its Art Deco covers) with every decoration to anybody indexed to their gazette entry. I've been through "Schematismus" rank lists, but he went inactive so early on that he had nothing to show circa 1900.

We'll find him.

The scribble is, I think "D---" (for Dr.) followed by his short name with an in near the end.

[Rogi]

Looks like D. Tuning to me :S I have similar "bad" writing, but then again the D could be an S. Since I sometimes eat up my loop in the S and it appears as a D.

[Guest Rick Research]

Yup. That's why I'm going through over 30,000 entries in the Ehrenbuch... hoping.

[Ian]

Eric,

Thank you for the additional information on the cross - Bavarian Royal Merit Order of Saint Michael,

I don't have any thing on Imperial German (or States) awards for that period.

Edited July 10, 2013 by Ian

[Ian]

I think we can probably rule Robert Doerr out of the the time being because the Dr we are searching for does not appear to have been awarded the FJO-R, whilst Robert Doerr has. Whilst this may appear unusual, in fact there are several listings in my copy of the 1918 'Jahrbuch fur das Militarartze' where Drs. have been awarded the FJO-OK without having a listing of the FJO-RK. As an example: Generale-Stabarzte Johann Frisch has the FJO-OK, but no FJO-RK and the same for Oberstabarzte 1 class Heinrich Rump.

In the mean time I am slowly working my way through my copy of the 1918 Militararzte Jahrbuch trying to match the Bavarian Bavarian St Michael Order with likely suspects, but so far no luck. Of course my Dr may have been out of the Army by then and that is why he is proving elusive.

Regards,

Ian

Edited July 10, 2013 by Ian

[Guest Rick Research]

Doerr's close, but I don't see a KD on his ÖEK3 (pardon my German Rank-List-speak, it's what I'm used to) and he's shown with Knight grade Red Cross award, not the Officer grade, as here.

From the "illustriertes Östrerreichisch-Ungarisches Ehren-Buch, Almanach der Mitglieder des Kaiserlich-Österreichischen Franz Joseph-Ordens" of 1909, Doerr is shown with only the military 1898 and 1908 jubilees, and his ÖFJ4 (1908) as ständiger Mitglied d. Milit.-Sanitäts-Kommittees. Soooo close, but not him.

Still wading through the "Golden Book," approaching halfway. He-whoever HE was--has to be in there for that goofy make-do ribbon rosetted FJO. (I wonder if holders traded them in for the later version?)

I don't think our Mystery Doctor is going to appear in wartime military rank lists... but he SHOULD appear, just like all the Danube merchant captains and civilian government employees etc, decorated to 1915 in the "Golden Book."

Edited July 10, 2013 by Rick Research

[Guest Rick Research]

Ignoring the scribbled autograph (totally ) about 2/3 done for ALL decorations into whenever the "golden Book" was published in 1915... so far the one, the only "suspect" I've come up with was

Oberstabsarzt 1. Klasse auf Kriegsdauer, außerordentlicher Professor Dr. Alois LODE, who received the Officer class Franz Jospeh Order per P.V. Blatt 110/15 in "6. Armee Etappen Kommando."

I find ZERO on him in any of my amittedly limited Austro-Hungarian sources, nor do I turn him up in my house full of German ones.

????

and the search goes onward....

[Ian]

Rick,

Oberstabarzte 1. Klasse Alois LODE, is listed on page 243 of the 1918 'Jahrbuch fur Militararzte' under Konsilarzte. Dr Lobe is not listed in the 1914 Jahrbuch for Militararzte.

Edited July 12, 2013 by Ian

[Glenn J]

Rick,

If we assume this a 1917 or later photo then OSA 1. Kl. Lode is not our man as this guy is still an OSA 2. Kl. I am wondering if Berthold Reder might be the subject. He was not promoted to OSA 1. Kl. until May 1917.

Regards

Glenn

[Guest Rick Research]

Reder/Réder doesn't match because he was career military-- 1898 and 1908 military jubilees, 1912/13 Mobilization Cross, and brace of Signum Laudis Medals (thus neatly avoiding Latin plural: Signii Laudii?)

Man-Of-Mystery is not only not career military, he was some sort of civil servant. I never find a category like that listed in the Schematismus...rank lists. Must have been very junior when aD-- and then miraculous reapperas fully ranked during the war... with no in between! Military pre-1898, civil service 1898 and 1908... but only the one civil 1908 and BOTH 1898s.

I need a chart of K.u.k. medical ranks. I keep seeing German ones!

Edited July 12, 2013 by Rick Research

[Glenn J]

Rick,

your wish is my command

Of course, in some cases, senior Prussian medical officers could rank "one up":

Generalarzt - Generalmajor

Obergeneralarzt - Generalleutnant

Generalstabsarzt der Armee - General der Infanterie

Regards

Glenn

[Guest Rick Research]

Aha! It's that discrepancy between STABSARZT equivalence that's been throwing me off. In hunting through the "Golden Book," virtually all (98%-ish) FJO-Officer grades have gone to K.u.k. OSA 1. Klasse... whcih in my "German" mind was = Lt. Colonel.

Makes no difference in the hunt, since have been searching out any 1915 recipients of that grade among medical corps... and finding (so far) only the 1--now eliminated--who wasn't active or active reserve with military but not civil jubilees.

[Ian]

Rick, Glenn J and Wraith 42

Thank you for your efforts in trying to help identify my mystery Oberstabartz, however it would appear he shall remain a mystery for the time being.

Regards,

Ian

[Guest Rick Research]

Zur Zeit! But like the old TV show tagline... "The answer is out there!"