Brunswick Double Austrian ribbon on Navy bar

[webr55]

It's been a while. I might have posted this before, but I'm not sure:

[webr55]

Double Austrian ribbon on a Navy trapezoid bar. It should have been someone who got his first Austrian award in an NCO position, the second one as an officer.

[webr55]

My vague suspect is: Hermann Hübner, Char. Torpedo-Oberingenieur. Born 1884, went up through the ranks during the war. 31.10.1917 commissioned as Torpedo-Ingenieur. 1919 aD, 1920 char Torp-Obering. He was in Spezialkommando Pola during 1915/16, so should have had Austrian awards before being commissioned. BUT no further proof.

[Guest Rick Research]

How about Otto Haase *22.06.83, navy 03.01.02-sometime 1926/31, then back. Mar-OberIng 16.12.14, KorvKapt (Ing) 01.09.23, Kapt zS (Ing) to date 11.06.32. He's shown with EK1, XXV, BrK, and ÖgVKKr/T which doesn't QUITE match--if theyw ere correct on the K.u.k. award(s)

He'd have been in uniform 1934/35 before changing the XXV for WM25 & 12

or Hans Rusche *19.04.78, navy 01.10.97--30.06.22, Mar-OberIng 22.03.13 N, Mar-StIng 28.04.18, KorvKapt (Ing) 01.04.22. EK1, XXV, BrKr, unfortunately falls into the no foreign awards Rank Lists gap. But he was with IV. U-Bootsflotille throughout--wherever THAT was. I find no trace of him after 1922.

I agree you've got an up from the ranks technical officer.

Edited August 25, 2013 by Rick Research

[webr55]

Thanks - so he might have been commisioned before the war... that widens the possibilities. Both candidates sound interesting!

[M Hunter]

Adding to the story...I believe these were sold at the same time as this bar.

Swords on the Brunswick ribbon- perhaps in lieu of the Bewährungsabzeichen?

Matt

[M Hunter]

The back of one of the bars.

Edited August 25, 2013 by M Hunter

[Guest Rick Research]

I do believe you've solved the mystery Matt! The crown would certainly fit, later replacement Wehrmacht 25 fits... that just leaves an editorial omission of the ÖM3K, with round wreath device as favored by Germans in most cases, or with Xs but ahead of the Gold Merit Crosss with Crown on War Ribbon that is mentioned for engineer Captain Haase.

I lost 15 years ( ) looking for a Kriegsmarine ribbon bar (an admiral!!) because I looked in 1926--which had "issues" with accuracy and never checked 1931--when same had been corrected. But Haase vanishes between those two points. Then once the Nazis took over, no Rank Lists showing awards any more.

In another case never corrected a Reichsmarine officer in one of my Böning photos ALWAYS had listed a Franz Joseph Order... when he too had a Merit Cross with Crown. (Apparently some officers NEVER checked their own entries!)

[M Hunter]

Glad to have been of service good sir!

In which year/edition of the Navy ranklist are Haase's KuK awards listed?

Best wishes

Matt

[M Hunter]

Webr55 & Rick,

It seems Haase served right up to March 1945.

Perhaps this would help confirm the KVK2, for this role as Inspektions-Ingenieur?

Matt

Edited August 25, 2013 by M Hunter

[Guest Rick Research]

I only have a battered xerox of the awards sections of 1926 and 1931. He's there in the first and gone in the latter which is interesting because...

There is his 1931 Navy Honor Rank List 1914-1918 entry, showing not only still on active duty but with seniority of 1929 implausibly following previous promotion in 1928.

But from THAT, looking at lists of German WW1 warships, "U-63" was flagged as ...

Austro-Hungarian "U-63" I guess to make them feel better. German crew, Austrian flag... which begs the question: did he get the AUSTRIAN U-Boat Badge or the GERMAN one?

He's also listed as active Reichsmarine in the 1931 Marine-Offizier-Verband directory--which normally excluded mere engineers but had, I guess, to accept serving officers. So he went into retirement some time 1931/32-ish, then came back a year or three later and had his seniority altered... serving continuously but never getting promoted to Admiral.

I'd say try the Marinearchiv and see if they've mellowed about releasing personnel files since they were obnoxiously unhelpful in the 1980s. Or maybe they still report for work every day, lock the doors, and stare at the walls until retirement.

[Guest Rick Research]

And his entry in Lohmann-Hildebrand:

"AJ" was Inspection of Naval Artillery. While it says he was Inspectorate Engineer 1941-45, he must have gone zV from age (in 1943?), not mentioned here. LOTS of sloppy records-keeping on him for a lonnng time!

He was a member of the post-war MOHeV, at Adolfplatz ( ) 13, Kiel in 1963. I have no directories from then until 1983.

As an explanation of why I am "ignoring" a missing Austro-Hungarian award--

there just really weren't that many awards from Brunswick in the navy WW1. Most are immediately excluded by OTHER German awards, or time of service. This ribbon bar was worn by someone NOT in the navy on 22.03.97, who had an IMPERIAL-era long service award (excluding many younger "suspects"), and a documente connection with Austrian service--of a low-ranking sort. This person then was serving in the Wehrmacht (Kriegsmarine) after October 1936 with 25+ years seniority. That brings down choices pretty much to Otto Haase, I'd say.

[webr55]

WOW! Many thanks -- Matt: for saving the picture, Rick: for the research!

Yes, that all makes sense! I overlooked him because of ranklist problems.

[Guest Rick Research]

See if you can get the Marinearchiv to cough up his personnel file. The army called them "Auszug aus der Kriegsrangliste," but having never seen a naval one, don't know if they did their paperwork differently. I know that they DID have all such files--they just wouldn't release any. I bet this comes down to Haas's Ranglisten entries not having BOTH awards listed--because he fits every single other way.