Identifiable-To-Be-Medal Bars Number 17

[Komtur]

OK then. Next try. Sorry, the easier ones are solved before, so only the tricky ones are left

But here may be a chance: the combination and the backing smells like navy. Sold from a dealer as "from private source" and "a doctor from Hamburg". I couldn´t find him in the 1918 rank list.

Thanks and regards, Komtur.

Edited August 29, 2013 by Komtur

[M Hunter]

Beautiful medal bar Komtur! And a "no devices" plain ribbon bar. What a lovely set!

Best wishes

Matt

[Guest Rick Research]

This SHOULD be a matter of minutes--but it sin't. Sooooo.. despite the two (!!!) "medical" awards--I wonder if we're being tricked and this was someone like a Major dL-TRAIN in some sort of ambulance unit, not a "Doctor" at all. I can't find any "Arzt" who could possibly match!

[Komtur]

This SHOULD be a matter of minutes--but it sin't. Sooooo.. despite the two (!!!) "medical" awards--I wonder if we're being tricked and this was someone like a Major dL-TRAIN in some sort of ambulance unit, not a "Doctor" at all. I can't find any "Arzt" who could possibly match!

In some way it is consoling, that you NOT got him in minutes

Should rename my threads to Non-Identifiable-To-Be-Medal Bars

Regards, Komtur.

[Guest Rick Research]

Well, it's taken me THIS long to go from the 693 possible suspects to eliminate anyone in the navy (except the two who did not exist--names mangled) and am down to 607 for the army. Hundreds of "KP Majore" to verify that they can be eliminated as regulars and not dR and dL. THEN the "Short List" will appear.

Those are GOLD centers on the BMV4XKr?

[Guest Rick Research]

556 to go, time for even RGs to sleep.

I'm guessing this will work down to about 20 suspects with no other way to eliminate them-- but 20 is better than 693!!!!

[Guest Rick Research]

You know, this BOTHERED me. I kept thinking "navy" too. Couldn't get away from that. And... that IS where I found him---possibly. Presented to the jury--

Marine-Oberstbsarzt der Reserve Friedrich Schmidt, born 17 June 1871. (Date very important--there were two that name but the other was ACTIVE)

First up, his 1918 Rank List entry: ' alt='' class='ipsImage' >

which quite freakishly shows a BMV4X and HH... with no EK2!!!! His BMV4X was awarded 7 December 1914 as "KM Stabsarzt dR, II. See Bataillon" (whatever "connection" he had to Bavaria!)

As we all know, the KM wartime Rank Lists are freakishly inaccurate (Wiehr, etc etc). NOTE: Schmidt lived in Hessian XVIII. Armeekorps area. He had the time in for a PrXX that is not shown--any more than his EK2 was.

Here is his entry from the sloppily done 1919 Stammliste des Marine-Sanitäts-Offizierkorps 1848-1918: this just repeats awards as shown in the 1918 MRL--

But the sloppiness does not end there! Where oh where is the "Kr" to his BMV4X??? ...

BMV4XKr was awarded 7 November 1919, with entry incorrcetly reading "Oberstaabsarzt dR Dr. Friedrich Schmidt"--leaving off the crucial prefix to his rank "Marine-"!!!! That listing would lead any reader to conclude that the Dr. Friedrich Schmidt in question was a Bavarian army reservist--

except there was NO such doctor with this rank then!!!! Error piled upon error!

Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, I put it to you that:

1) Dr. Schmidt's EK2 was obviously omitted, as was his XX: clerical/proofreading errors by no means unusual for the wartime MRL

2) I'm more inclined to believe the Bavarian 1914 BMV4X gazette of his actual unit as II. See Bn than the service shown in ...inefficient navy sources

3) His PrRKM3 is a late/post-war zinky teardrop type

4) he lived in Hesse, and somebody got around to getting him a HSK/T-and also after the war (from ribbon bar, AFTER PrRKM3)

Even the 1914-1918 Navy Honor Rank List does not show 1914 Sea Battalion service in Flanders but... that too seems to be copying the "1848-1918"--

' alt='' class='ipsImage' >

I'd say these bits and pieces add up to a very plausible circumstantial case-- pending verification (if ever possible to obtain) from his OFFICIAL navy personnel records at the Marinearchiv.

[Komtur]

Unfortunately I am not the jury - but I am quite sure you catched him . To many hints give me this good feeling.

Great job! Thanks and regards, Komtur.

BTW: The center of the BMV4XKr seems to be made of gold. "J.L." and "950" and the enamel on the lower arm is cracked (as always).

Edited August 30, 2013 by Komtur

[Guest Rick Research]

That is ANOTHER confirmation. Too many things here to be coincidence with this one. Ah, for records from the Marinearchiv.......

[Dave Danner]

One caveat:

There was a Kgl. Bayer. Oberstabsarzt d.R. a.D. Dr. Friedrich Schmidt. Born on 29.1.1861 in Friedberg in Oberbayern, he was a practicing doctor and Kgl. Hofrat in Augsburg. The Kriegsrangliste of the Reserve-Lazarett Augsburg A identifies him as a "Laz. u. Dienstthuender San.-Offz. b. Bez. Kdo." and says he was transferred on 31.5.16 to the Kriegslazarett-Abteilung of the 6. bayer. Reserve-Division. Unfortunately, this Kriegsrangliste gives no other details of his military career and I cannot find him in any other Kriegsrangliste. There is a Kriegsrangliste u. -stammrolle for a Kriegslaz.-Abt. attached to the 6.b.RD, but he does not appear in the name index.

The 1919 entry in the Bavarian Verordnungsblatt for the BMV4XKr identifies the recipient as Oberstabsarzt "Dr. Friedrich Schmidt der Reserve (Augsburg)". Given the aforementioned OSAdRaD Schmidt's Augsburg connection, it is quite possible that he, not the Marine-OSAdR, is the recipient of the BMV4XKr.

[Guest Rick Research]

And I took the day off from the 566 suspects! The printed volume did NOT include Augsburg--nor does the roll

I got the K.B. Personal-Nachrichten Verordnungsblätter from the Library of Congress (!) on interlibrary loan when I was in college almost 40 years ago. Are those now online someplace?

[Dave Danner]

I got the hard copies on loan from the University of Michigan a few years ago. For some reason, although they supposedly digitized them all, the only Personal-Nachrichten ones available online are 1914, Jan-Jun 1917, and 1919.

[Guest Rick Research]

I bet a lot of college sophomores "need" them. I was the only person to ever use the ones I got in 1977--when books still had CARDS in back showing who had signed them out (very useful, that).

This is a particularly interesting case, because usually we RGs either get an identification solidly or CAN'T. Here we have SOME data but not enough, so you can all see the back and forth and the multiple contributions that go into coming up with an identification. (And the "real time" of the effort.)

There will--eventually--be a "short list" and THEN we will begin re-winnowing again, depending on which of us has what sources. We may not (Anno 2013) get him even then... but who knows what sources will turn up in the future?

[Guest Rick Research]

Down to... 206 suspects at the moment--from 693. Yeah. "Fun" isn't it?

[Guest Rick Research]

168--of whom only 39 are listed as dR/dL, or either aD. Just 11 doctors--with the expected common last names and going to be tough attaching one. Still have to go through all 129 Majors in case any WERE dR or dL and just didn't get entered that way--but unless Train or Cavlry in an ambulance cunit command, I think that a "combatant" officer is quite unlikely with the DOUBLE Red Cross/edical awards on this bar.

This is like drawing the lottery numbers one number a week.....

[Guest Rick Research]

Down to 30. Now we enter the land of "Meier" and so on.

[Komtur]

Oh dear

[Guest Rick Research]

Don't worry-- it will probably be HALF that many in the end.