For Research Oak leaf for Iron Cross 2nd Class 1870

[Komtur]

For a compilation of different types I am searching for oak leafs of the Iron Cross 2nd class 1870. To make it more probable, that these are made originally, I am specially looking for oak leafs on order bars. The result is to be found here. Later I will give a summary in the GMIC too.

Therefore please show in this thread high resolution pictures of oak leafs on order bars.

Thanks!

Regards, Komtur.

[rujab]

great work

gruss

rudi

[Streptile]

Hi Tilo,

I am following your (long overdue!) thread on SDA with great interest but the language barrier makes it hard for me to comment articulately. I'm happy you've begun a companion thread here, and I will add some comments and photos.

First let me say that I am quite sure your "variant 5" is a fake. I wrote this over there too. There are indeed some original 1895 oakleaf clusters with sans-serif numerals (for example, your "variant 6"). But this variant 5 is almost always encountered on fake (Ninth Bead) EK2s with fake (crown/moon) 1914 WHS, or otherwise on quite obviously faked bars. I myself have never seen this variant 5 type on any bar that looked legitimate to me. If you would like some examples of this oakleaf on Ninth Bead fake sets, just ask and I will try to find some.

Following this post I will add some photos of pieces from my collection. You may add them to your thread if you wish.

[Streptile]

Variant 10 (maker: AWS)

[Streptile]

Variant 1

[Streptile]

Variant 2.

[Streptile]

Variant 3.

I have a suspicion this type was manufactured by St&L but I don't have any proof.

Edited November 19, 2013 by Streptile

[Streptile]

Variant 9. This type was made in silvered tin and also in real silver (I think).

[Streptile]

Variant 13. This is very close to the "Probe" but is not quite the same, as noted in your thread.

[Streptile]

Reduction (Reduktion). I will supply measurements if required.

[Streptile]

Finally, another one that I believe to be an early period variant with acorns.

I have a copy of a letter from the War Ministry office dated 29 August 1895 indicating that there was a problem with manufacturers making oakleaves after they were authorized, but before a final design had been accepted. This resulted in some oakleaves being made "contrary to regulations." I assume that these variant types (this one, and the one that looks like a Zähringer Lion oakleaf, which you have labeled "Variante 16," among others) are exactly what this letter referred to. Thus I think it's a fascinating piece.

Here is a translation of the relevant letter:

File no. 3923/95
War Ministry to: Royal President of the State Ministry, Duke of Hohenzollern
Berlin 29 August 1895
Received: 4 September 1895

With reference to the... oak leaves on the ribbon of the Iron Cross... Industry did not wait for the issuing of officially authorized prototypes, but straightaway released without instruction products partly contrary to regulations... May I ask permission to give correct instruction through various newspapers, which publish official notices so everybody will be informed?

Signed: Bronsart von Schellendorff

I am curious to know your thoughts on this piece. I have seen four such examples.

[gregM]

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Edited November 21, 2013 by gregM

[Komtur]

Many thanks for your input, Trevor and sorry for the late reply.

I will try to make myself clear, what I am aim for. There are lots of different types of Oak Leaves for the 2nd class of the Iron Cross 1870 on the marked. Often there is the question, is this or that version an original and old made one or not. This is difficult to answer, because the Oak Leaves had to be provided privately and were not delivered by officials, e.g. the General-Ordenskommission. In my opinion there is a way to answer by compiling versions of Oak Leaves on order bars and evaluate this statistically. There is a danger indeed, that also on an order bar is a modern fake. But ist is less likely, that on two, three or even ten different order bars the same version is to be found as a copy. Until now I examined 44 bars with some interesting results.

Therefore please, showed ORDER BARS with an Iron Cross 1870 with OAK LEAVES in this thread.

Later I will give a summary of the results here in the GMIC.

Thanks and Regards, Komtur.

[Komtur]

I add here, what I found until now:

Variant 0

Equal to the version in the Geheimes Staatsarchiv Preußischer Kulturbesitz as a example for the manufacturers. Until now NOT found on order bars.

[Komtur]

Variant 1

3 examples of this version could be found on order bars.

[Komtur]

Variant 2

10 examples of this version could be found on order bars.

Edited November 24, 2013 by Komtur

[Komtur]

Variant 3

7 examples of this version could be found on order bars.

It is shown additionaly in each case once in the basic publications of Heyde and Wernitz.

Edited November 24, 2013 by Komtur

[Komtur]

Variant 4

once found on an order bar (in a museum)

Edited November 24, 2013 by Komtur

[Komtur]

Variant 5

Once found on an order bar

This version seems to be a fake (see post 3!)

Unfortunately shown twice in the basic publication of Previtera.

Edited November 24, 2013 by Komtur

[Komtur]

Variant 6

6 examples could be found on order bars.

It is shown additionaly once in the basic publication of Wernitz.

Edited November 24, 2013 by Komtur

[Komtur]

Variant 7

Twice found on order bars.

[Komtur]

Variant 8

once found on an order bar

[Komtur]

Variant 9

twice found on order bars

It is shown additionaly in each case once in the basic publications of Wernitz and Previtera.

Edited November 24, 2013 by Komtur

[Komtur]

Variant 10

8 examples could be found on order bars

It is shown additionaly in each case in the basic publications of Wernitz (twice) and Previtera (once).

The maker seems to be AWS, because it was shown in his catalogue (Thanks Trevor!).

Edited November 24, 2013 by Komtur

[Komtur]

Variant 11

twice found on order bars