Unidentified Unidentified tipstaff

[Ross Mather]

This is a quality boxed tipstaff which I purchased last year. Fitted lined oak box. Metal crown with metal 'castle' type motif on both sides of the tipstaff. Different shades of wood on opposite sides. If you study the 'castle' it is unusual in that it has steps at the bottom of each turret.....the obvious such as Exeter...have been ruled out. Any ideas Mervyn?....or any members who can give me any information please.

[Mervyn Mitton]

A really special retirement - or senior appointment - tipstaff. Could be William 4th or, Queen Victoria - both used the angled sides.

I suspect that it may be for Newcastle - also, consider Edinburgh. Mervyn

[Ross Mather]

I have searched many coats of arms Mervyn that are likely to contain a castle scene. However the 'castle' scene on the tipstaff is quite unusual in its design....especially as the three 'turrets'....all have sets of steps at their base. Its a very specific design and have not found similar on any searches.By the way....what type of value would you put on this. I have to admit not being up on tipstaffs. This came in a large box of many items. Thanks.......Ross

[Mervyn Mitton]

Prove it's origins and to whom it belonged and I would say anything up to 2000 pounds...............

There is a possibility that this is Military and not Police. Many Regt's. use the Castle - try looking at those that won

Honours at Gibralter . Mervyn

[Brian Wolfe]

I feel this is a modern piece made for someones retirement. The finish and techniques used to produce both the tip staff and box are modern as well as the hinges and screws. Also, the type of wood used is not, in my opinion,consistant with period made tip staffs.

Still a nice piece for a collection and if this is the beginning of a trend, upon the retirement of higer officials and military offcers, I am happy to see this taking place.

Regards

Brian

[Ross Mather]

I tend to disagree Brian. I am assuming that you say that the screws cannot be very old because of the assumption that all screws were hand made??? In 1770, English instrument maker, Jesse Ramsden (1735-1800) invented the first satisfactory screw-cutting lathe. Ramsden inspired other inventors. In 1797 a chap in England invented a large screw-cutting lathe that made it possible to mass-produce accurately sized screws. Out of curiosity, I removed two screws from the hinges. They are blunt ended and the thread is quite widely spaced.....in my opinion consistent with old screws...if modern, I would have expected to see them sharply pointed, with a tightly formed thread. I would be interested in hearing why you consider the box modern? Brass furniture hinges were capable of being manufactured of the highest quality even in the 17th / 18th centuries.

I would be interested in Mervyn's opinion on your view that the wood 'is not consistent' with period made tipstaffs? Do not understand the logic in that Brian. What woods would you suggest would not have been used? The wood is very good quality and heavy. As I was examining it more closely, I have discovered that the dark half of the wood....is in fact.....a wood stain....not a two tone wood. When purchased in auction, this was one of about 15 mainly George III and William IV truncheons, tipstaffs and three ....early rattles. I am not convinced that this was one modern piece in amongst a box full of everything else which was very old.

After 45 years of collecting old and period British law enforcement itmes, I am pretty good at spotting things which are not 'right'. I am not convinced its modern Brian, but would be pleased to know how you recognise it as modern.

Best wishes..............Ross

[Brian Wolfe]

Hello Ross,

These discussions are always touchy at best and we all have to draw our own conclusion. You have collected for 45 years and I have been a cabinet maker for only 40 so wood and hardware are just part of life for me. I never intended to say screws of the period are all hand made and I have a source for screws that would appear to be period as well as square cut nails etc. All machine made screws are NOT always pointed, it depends on what you want them for. I've made many antique reproductions over the years but I would say this is neither old nor an attempt to copy an antique. As to the wood I would expect a darker wood such as lignum. The wood asside I will stand by what I am going to respectfully say next. The turning quality is second rate even by today's professional turner's standards. There are sanding scratches on the handle so it was never really finished with the finer grit papers as would be expected by either a period piece of a modern made piece by a knowledgable turner. The bands around the handle are too wide in my opinion and the edges not fginished to a "crisp" condition. This would lead me to believe it is a type of wood that could not take a sharp corner such as lignum or other hard species of wood. There is no patina on any of the surfaces that would make me believe this to be an original period piece. I too have several tip staffs in my collection and while the collection is not extensive they make your specimen scream "modern" by compairison. As to the box, I would say there is nothing to suggest that it has any age at all. The support for the tipstaff is also very common to modern presentation boxes where the attention to detail, if there is much at all, is on the object being presented and not the box. The lining is not finished on the edges and I would have expected that an original presentation box to have been "flocked" rather than material glued to the box sides and staff support, but that is only conjecture.

As to the stain I would not have expected a tipstaff to be only half stained, if stained at all. To say that this was one of a lot and all the rest are authentic therefore this one is authentic may be wishful thinking. Over the years I've purchased several lots (never a lot containing tipstaffs), and there is often a copy or two that was slipped in either on purpose or accidently. If this was a lot from one collection it may have been an item that struck the collector's fancy. I say that because I would have included it in a collection as I actually like the piece.

So with 40 years of experience in cabinet making and antiques repair and reporduction plus having several tip staffs myself what are the chances of me being wrong? To be honest...pretty good. There are so many what ifs and possibilities that for me to say without a possibility of being wrong that this is modern would make such statements worthless. I would have to be pretty egotistical to say that I am 100% correct, especially when I hope that I am wrong. If I saw this at a show and wanted an authentic piece I would not purchase it. If I saw it and it was priced as a modern presentation piece I would probably have purchased it as such.

So here we are both hoping I am wrong.

Good luck with your research.

Regards

Brian

[Ross Mather]

I am not sure how many tipstaffs you have seen Brian, but the wood ones are without any doubt made over the centuries from a varied selection of woods, and are of all weird and wonderful shapes....without any common conformity to shape size or design. Lignum would not necessarily be the wood that was chosen. I have photographed another of mine with light coloured wood. Wood is nicely finished....but poorly cast crown.....as many of the original ones are. The brass castings were not always top of the range.They would have been made from all types of wood.

I suppose, as was the case with decorated truncheons, it depends on the skill level of who produced an item. Some were made by highly skilled workers who produced a high class product. Some, by lesser skilled people who would have produced items at a lower level on the scale. This could have been done at a local level, rather than go to the expense of sending off for a much more and highly expensive item......we'll never know, but I am happy that its a genuine item. Seems that we will have to be poles apart on our opinions.

Edited December 17, 2013 by Ross Mather

[Brian Wolfe]

Hi Ross,

Perhaps we are not poles apart only the Atlantic Ocean.

As to your comment on the type of wood you are spot on. After I responded and went back to the shop I realized I was thinking truncheons, my error.

Also I agree that these were made locally and could vary greatly in quality and I too have an example where the crown is poorly cast.

I am still not convinced as I've seen a lot of examples of turner's work both from modern back to ancient times and I feel this is not old. The example you have just shown is perhaps not a good example as it is head and shoulder above the one we are discussing. The very style of the handle on the one in question is not, in my view, reminicent of the era. it looks too much like the poorly made gavels given to local mayors over here made by a hobbiest.

You will also notice the defect in the handle in one photo that runs along the grain of the wood. This looks like a defect in the wood and not shrinkage cracking. Consider these points, the amount of wood needed to make this would be from the scrap pile or "short ends" (in my shop) so a defect in this small a piece of wood would have resulted in it having been thrown in the wood stove and the project started over. One needs to remember that these original tip staffs represented the Crown so a defective handle would probably not be let out of the shop.

This sort of grain "tear out" is caused by using the skew turning tool as a scraper rather than as a cutting tool. These are used held on an angle to shear off a ribbon of wood leaving a smooth surface that needs no sanding. A common amature mistake is to us this tool or a square scraper to remove the material causing tear out which has to be sanded out. Deep tear outs can't be sanded out as it would involve too much material removal and take too long.

So perhaps the craftsman used the tool in the incorrect position? Not likely, as not every fellow in the area owned a lathe so I would think a housewright or other woodworking professional would have gotten the job to produce this. The tool would have been used to cut not scrape as not only is this faster and leaves a fine finish there is no need to use sand paper which was expensive and time consuming. If the lathe was in the shop of cabinet maker it may have been powered by water , steam etc. however if in a local craftsman shop it could have been foot powered, making the proper use of the skew tool even more important.

I would suggest looking through some trohpy shops to see if they have this type of crown and crest for sale. If you find some then it is a mystery solved, if not at least that can be crossed off the list.

As I said before I do hope I am wrong about this and even if I am correct it may very well have been a retirement gift that harkened back to older more traditional days.

Regards

Brian

[jonsey2001]

Greetings,

That appears to be a Queens Crown to me. And the castle looks like the US Army Corps of Engineers insignia. Just my first impression.

Kind regards, George

[Mervyn Mitton]

George - you are right in that the Queen chose King Edward's Queen to be the official one when she became the Monarch.

However, there are a number of different shapings that have been adopted over the years. Georgian Crowns appear to be

a softer curve for the arches - whereas King William 4th (1830/37) adopted one with angular sides. Queen Victoria

continued with the Wm. 4th pattern, however, over the years it became less angular.

I would have to say that this style is for an earlier period - however, I am beginning to think that it is a later piece for a specific

presentation. Should this be the case , then the sculptor could have carved as he felt it should-be.

You may have some good ideas with an American origin. I have seen - and heard of more - examples of tipstaves being

made as gifts to retiring officials and in one case (I forget the State) the Chief was encouraged to carry it on parade.

Could you post a picture of the US Engineers badge for comparison ? Mervyn

[jonsey2001]

Hello, here is one I pulled from the web. I have a couple loose and on a uniform but this was easier.. They scale to size approx. 3/4" wide and 5/8" high give or take.

George

[Chris Boonzaier]

I think George has nailed it with that badge...

[Mervyn Mitton]

Yes - it particularly has the steps at the front that Ross was having problems with. This would seem to indicate an American

Presentation piece - which in recent years have become more common. What do you think Ross ?

Brian - would this tie-in with the type of wood you were discussing and the workmanship ? Mervyn

[Brian Wolfe]

Hi Mervyn,

I would have never thought this to be an American piece but the crest would support that hypothesis. I would say that the workmanship is sadly more indicitative of today's hobbiest. That being said I think this is still a very worthwhile addition to any collection. It shows that we as a society, or at least a small segment of society, is holding on to a tradition to goes back hundreds of years. You know how much I like specimens that show a link to other eras, such as medal groups with two or more monarchs, or in the case of a Canadian police helmet I have that had the helmet plate changed from a Victorian to the King's crown badge. If this solves the mystery then it is an even more significant specimen, provided you accept my thinking of "links to the past".

Come to think about it, considering our interests, I guess we here at GMIC are links to the past ourselves.

Regards

Brian